Idlers vs Direct Drive vs Belt Drive



This thread went offtrack on page one, in my opinion. That's when a belief was stated as being empirical evidence. Shortly after that, the whole subjective/objective, objective/subjective business reared its ugly head again. It's my belief that no one here is purely cemented in a single camp, however. Rather, I think we are blends of both camps, and that it is a matter of how the mix is weighted that puts us at bay. Am I wrong?

Then, there is the not-so-small matter of how our experiences are communicated. If a reader cannot grasp a concept that another is trying to express, the subject only sinks deeper into the abyss. To resolve the problem as it applies to this thread, the entire issue of speed accuracy will need to be laid to rest. Only then can the many other aspects that matter be discussed in any meaningful way. Surely there is a way to do that, but the whole affair is not something that can be described as simplistic.

An effort to understand what other posters are really trying to say will go a long way. I suppose reasonable questions are more helpful than derisive comments and extraneous posts about things that have little bearing on the subject.
 
Context, what does a measurement from Sutherland tell you? Its no more than a tool giving you some visual cue of the platter's rotational speed. a glorified strobe. Handy for set up, but you don't know' from that figure how many adjustments were made by the motor controller to maintain that speed? Maybe 0.3% is the magic number because fewer adjustments could mean better sound, you can't tell that from these tools. You're taking a visual approximation of .003%!!! from imperfect tools, you have no way to verify that. Sometimes those who like to call others subjectivists pretend that we're the equal of cave people, and wear the WORD science like a shield on their cuffs while completely ignoring other essential realities. Of course we use such tools when setting up a tt to bring me close to an assumed target quickly, but this isn't science, a monkey can do it! Where the science and experience comes in is in deciding on the correct tension for the belt. All these cheap tools easily have a +/- variation of at least a few percent, I can get almost the exact same visual reading for a slightly looser or slightly tighter belt, but you'll never know which is correct without your ears. A little too loose and everything in the soundstage will collapse and the sound will be muddy and confused, a little too much tension and the sound becomes too tight and the sound stage lowered, more hifi sound. Do you have any tools better than a pair of ears and a brain for judging the right belt tension? The other issue of context is that no of the measurements provided in this thread begin to explain anything about the sq of the 3 different design types. We're still waiting for a real affirmative yes or no from the science camp boys confirming if they believe that they're arguing that under the same conditions there's no significant audible difference in the sound character of a Garrard 401, Micro RX-1500 and a SP-10. This is the context, how do measurements from Feikert or the Sutherland distinguish the differences in sound quality of each type?

david

I see your point, David. Thank you for explaining "context". The only reason I started with the TimeLine videos was because I got tired of reading comments that the SME belt drive tables could not hold accurate speed. I wanted some kind of visual evidence that could be shared on forums to support what my ears were telling me. And I had seen evidence of tables running too fast with the Timeline which confirmed what I was actually hearing. So I made those videos as "evidence" of being unable to hear speed variations during a solo piano recording on my SME. And yes, it is a good set up tool but does not tell us more about the sound.

I agree that if the three tables in the OP all demonstrate through some speed test measuring device the same results, those devices tell you nothing about the sound being different. I think this answers my earlier question about starting the discussion from some common baseline. You are starting from a point where all the reference tables under discussion or in the OP have already solved the issue of measuring the same in terms of correct speed. Now we can move on to discussing why they sound different, is that correct? If so, I am with you, now.

Incidentally, when I did the only direct comparison between two turntables in my own system under the same conditions, I made all observations using only my ears. Of course that is how we learn whether or not two turntables sound different from each other. I am hoping to do a similar comparison between my SME and an SP10 Mk3 using the same cartridge and tonearm. Perhaps then I will hear whether or not the SME is truly flawed.
 
This thread went offtrack on page one, in my opinion. That's when a belief was stated as being empirical evidence. Shortly after that, the whole subjective/objective, objective/subjective business reared its ugly head again. It's my belief that no one here is purely cemented in a single camp, however. Rather, I think we are blends of both camps, and that it is a matter of how the mix is weighted that puts us at bay. Am I wrong?

No, I think you are correct, Win. I just went back to the beginning of this thread and noticed that, as you correctly point out, on the first page the Monaco TT was introduced as the "most accurate." This went on until the bottom of page 3 where I quote some belt drive vs DD stats and ask if they all measure about the same and this degree of speed accuracy is or nearly inaudible, then the question should be how and why these well measuring tables sound different.

PeterA said:
Measurements are great, but in the end, I wonder if these tiny differences in speed accuracy are even audible? I have seen if I could hear that 0.1Hz change of pitch, and I can not. Others may be able to.

More important than the slight differences in specifications of well measuring turntables is how they actually sound. For this, I appreciate David's brief summaries in his OP. I have not had the pleasure or experience of directly comparing the sounds of different drive type tables in my own system. Nor have I done any experiments to determine how one turntable using the same arm, cartridge and cable, in the same system sounds different from another table, except once. I did compare the SME Model 10 to the Model 30/12 under controlled conditions. It was most educational. An audio buddy has a refurbished Technics SP10 Mk3 with SME V12 arm and AirTight Supreme cartridge, so I am hoping to someday be able to directly compare that table to my 30/12. It would be very interesting.

David, thank you for starting this thread. I hope it develops into a good discussion describing the advantages, disadvantages, and sonic differences between various drive types.

We all like the OP, so I am sorry if I contributed to the derailing of the thread and here is my effort to get it back on topic. Why do different tables sound different if they can all hold the correct speed? And why, for instance, do different DD tables sound different? I have learned that it has to do with how the speed is corrected - how often and how abruptly. What are some of the other reasons?
 
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I use a Monarch PLT 200 Laser Tachometer to set the speed on my Clearaudio master innovation TT. I feel is it more accurate and easier to use than the timeline.

http://www.monarchinstrument.com/product.php?ID=24

Accuracy: Optical:±0.01% of reading

The accuracy of the measurement is only one aspect of measuring speed control. We must also consider how many times per revolution to make the measurement. Feickert and Sutherland only measure once per revolution, ie, once every 1.8 seconds. Grand Prix, according to the info posted earlier, measures 4x per revolution. It also makes 4000 corrections per revolution, but there is no indication how the corrections are determined. I applaud Grand Prix for the information they have given.

It is not so easy to make four measurements per revolution plus you will need some custom firmware to make sense of the measurements.

Sutherland and Feickert are very useful as initial measurements to get as in the ballpark but I do not think they provide us with the information to reach reference level.

AJ Conte (Basis) makes his own flat rubber belt for his turntables. In his white papers on speed control he states he can hear sound differences if the variation in belt thickness is greater than .001" but that he cannot measure any differences.
 
.................... A little too loose and everything in the soundstage will collapse and the sound will be muddy and confused, a little too much tension and the sound becomes too tight and the sound stage lowered, more hifi sound.
david

I agree with your assessment. When I changed to a .001" seamless Kapton belt the tension became critical. I eventually built a primitive sled with 200 threads per inch screws to adjust the tension. Also critical is the nature of the interface between the belt and the pulley and platter, which needs to be chosen to minimize slipping, ie, the coefficient of friction between the belt and the pulley and platter should not be ignored.

Any thoughts on why a too tight belt does what it does? Too loose and it seems natural to assume the belt is slipping. Do you think slipping is also occurring when it is too tight or perhaps the increased side thrust on the bearing is the problem?
 
The accuracy of the measurement is only one aspect of measuring speed control. We must also consider how many times per revolution to make the measurement. Feickert and Sutherland only measure once per revolution, ie, once every 1.8 seconds.

True. These tools are useful only to show that a turntable is turning the right number of revolutions per minute. Even then, a given deck could be at 33.345, and it would appear to be grossly off, if you rely on those devices as gospel. Perfect consistency at 33.345 is better than a jerky 33.333, however. Still, all of us want our modern machines to turn at the stated speed, which is 33.333. That's the baseline, but we also want a perfectly consistent 33.333. Bear in mind that a great many records were not cut at that level of accuracy, so 33.345 may actually be better for some of them. Nonetheless, there needs to be a standard. Feickert and Sutherland verify the standard.

Grand Prix, according to the info posted earlier, measures 4x per revolution. It also makes 4000 corrections per revolution, but there is no indication how the corrections are determined. I applaud Grand Prix for the information they have given. It is not so easy to make four measurements per revolution plus you will need some custom firmware to make sense of the measurements.

My earlier posts were aimed at determining why 4,000 corrections per revolution are necessary because it is possible to build a turntable that needs zero corrections per revolution. In the case of those turntables, corrections can be spaced out much further. Better yet, they can be made available "on demand". Also, they are dependent on influences that are inherent to the design and external ones, like oil viscosity at startup and ambient temperature. What those corrections are not are fixes for something lacking in the design that could have been avoided. If AJ Conte can hear a difference when a belt varies more than .001" in a Basis turntable, does that indicate anything about 4,000 corrections per revolution being necessary in a Monaco turntable? I'm not knocking the Monaco. I'm just trying to understand the rational of it all.


Sutherland and Feickert are very useful as initial measurements to get as in the ballpark but I do not think they provide us with the information to reach reference level.

Again, true.

AJ Conte (Basis) makes his own flat rubber belt for his turntables. In his white papers on speed control he states he can hear sound differences if the variation in belt thickness is greater than .001" but that he cannot measure any differences.

I suspect he is correct. There are a lot things we still cannot quantify due to the complexity of the machine. When one is attempting to take a turntable as far as it can go, every small detail matters because they all add up.
 
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Still, all of us want our modern machines to turn at the stated speed, which is 33.333. That's the baseline, but we also want a perfectly consistent 33.333. Bear in mind that a great many records were not cut at that level of accuracy, so 33.345 may actually be better for some of them.
I did a quick search on AES Journal and this popped up as the first hit:

i-C3PSXKv-S.png


i-WzD75N2.png

If my math is right, using the 0.05% number, speed variations will be in the range of 33.325 on the low side to high of 33.342 if the record is played back on the same equipment that made it.

Your point is right though that you don't know this number for any record so better opt to make playback as good as you can make it.

Let me know if there is more interest in this type of data and I can dig more.
 
I agree with your assessment. When I changed to a .001" seamless Kapton belt the tension became critical. I eventually built a primitive sled with 200 threads per inch screws to adjust the tension. Also critical is the nature of the interface between the belt and the pulley and platter, which needs to be chosen to minimize slipping, ie, the coefficient of friction between the belt and the pulley and platter should not be ignored.

Any thoughts on why a too tight belt does what it does? Too loose and it seems natural to assume the belt is slipping. Do you think slipping is also occurring when it is too tight or perhaps the increased side thrust on the bearing is the problem?

I think that the tighter belt tension inhibits the free movement of the platter affecting the sound negatively. It really doesn't take much. The reason that I don't think its the side thrust on the bearing is that the effect is the same even on a 200lbs air floating platter, a tiny bit more tension and the sound goes to hell. This is my experience with solid belts like Conti's Kapton and Micro Seiki's SL-1, not sure but I think that its a kevlar belt.

david
 
Rather than ask about different drive mechanisms, could a more apples to apples discussion come from the frequency of error correction, or perhaps better, the frequency of accuracy as it correlates to a threshold of audibility?
Again, there is fair amount of psychoacoustics research on this front but I am not sure if the information is something people want to read about or not. Just to give a taste of it, this is the sensitivity of ear (based on listening tests) with respect to frequency of speed variation:

i-T9VC8Jk-L.png


This says that we are most sensitive to speed variation frequency variations of 4 Hz. This makes sense from evolutionary point of view as it is related to length of syllables in speech. Highest sensitivity there means best chance of comprehension. As frequencies increase or decrease, sensitivity drops rapidly.

We can compare this to common IES weigthing when measuring Wow and Flutter:

600px-Lindos9_Flutter.svg.png


Once again we see a similar curve. This means that Wow and Flutter measurements with IEC weighting is one of the few audio measurements that is done according to actual audibility of the variations!

Much more specific analysis can be done by converting time domain to frequency and applying masking theory to the component.

I only have measurements of one Linn turntable that comes from Stereophile (on the right):

i-tPkk5LJ-XL.png


The broad shoulders around the main tone means there are a lot of random variations in speed.

There are also specific components at roughly 30, 50 and 100 Hz. They are symmetrical and hence are jitter components with specific frequency. The levels are quite high (relative to digital systems). But their frequency is pretty low which means they enjoy a lot benefits from masking:

8.gif


Notice the similarity with IEC weighting of Wow and Flutter again.

At 1000 Hz matching the above measurements, the masking thresholds look like this:

direct4.gif


So the spikes on the right are for sure masked. The ones to the left will also be at high levels but perhaps not when you go way down.
 
I did a quick search on AES Journal and this popped up as the first hit:

i-C3PSXKv-S.png


i-WzD75N2.png

If my math is right, using the 0.05% number, speed variations will be in the range of 33.325 on the low side to high of 33.342 if the record is played back on the same equipment that made it.

Your point is right though that you don't know this number for any record so better opt to make playback as good as you can make it.

Let me know if there is more interest in this type of data and I can dig more.

Interesting. My 30 second guess in post #18 was .1% average due to my crude estimation of normal record eccentricity. :)

Thinks are not so simple as you imply. A rough calculus will immediately show that an eccentricity of 50 microns in an LP will produces a typical variation in speed around .1% between the extreme position's of an LP - it why Nakamichi created the TX 1000 Self-Centering Turntable. Does the GrandPrix take this effect in consideration?

Many factors must be considered in turntable design, always trying to weight them in psycho acoustic terms - and it seems you have not read the GrandPrix white paper, as they correctly warns us against the classic wow, flutter and rumble specifications. As they say "More importantly, there are aspects of fine platter speed control for which there are no industry tests or specifications. " (End of quote). Something that the subjective people always have claimed, but the measurement people do not accept!

Again, I have great respect for GrandPrix products and engineering.

As I have written elsewhere, we had a similar case in tape - the industry standard wow and flutter were not enough to separate good machines from the great sounding ones and explain these differences. Those differences could only be understood and measured thanks the great and extensive work of people like Dale Manquen and John G. McKnight who developed specific methods and instruments to study it.

And we should remember that a tape transport is a much simpler system than a turntable sniping an LP to be read by a cartridge stylus in a moving tonearm.

http://www.manquen.net/audio/index.php?page=9
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_G._McKnight

Both these authors published at AES. Unfortunately I do not know of any systematic work of similar depth carried with consumer turntables.
 
HI

We are getting somewhere.

I do not abide to the point that some things can't be measured. if it exists at all it can be measured. The problem is how do we measure it and how do we determine the veracity of the perception? We will call ourselves "disciplined" but our minds do play tricks on us. On us all. It remains however that we must acknowledge perceptions that seem to fly in the face of our known measurements something many of us, objectivists do have some problems coming to terms with. I tend to repeat as infinitum the works of Matti Ottala the father of TIM ( Transient Intermodulation Distortion ) or at the very least The person who made TIM famous. It was observed back in the 70's that many preferred the sound of tubes amps to the sound of SS amps with vastly superior THD measurements .. The rest is history and I will spare it to you ... The debate continue to this day . I can only say the sound of tubes and SS while remaining distinct is converging.

The morale is to have an open mind and this from both camp. Accept that our observations/perceptions can (and are often) wrong and on the other side, let us admit that our current set of measurements do not completely describe some aspects of preference. It is a moving target and more research is needed. On that we should welcome the works of Harman as far as I know with scant equivalent elsewhere in the Audio Industry. The High End community should give them more support. So far we haven't and even on this very forum the luminaries whose work are legend in the Audio community did post rather regularly in the beginning.. They no longer post ... They deserve our support.
I am in favour of what I call knowledge-removed testing. It certainly doesn't have the accuracy or scientific grounding of a double-blind but IMHO it lowers the strong bias that the visual and knolefe of the DUT have on many perceptions. I know it is difficult to pull off to satisfy everyone but it is IMHO better than knowing what is playing , how much it costs, the reviews about it, its pedigree and its reputation. If at all possible I would like to participate in such an evaluation of TTs. I do not claim this test would be perfect but it would be a step in the right direction. A Journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.


P.S. I may be able to find a Lenco L75 here in PAP... Is it worth it?
 
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Again, there is fair amount of psychoacoustics research on this front but I am not sure if the information is something people want to read about or not. Just to give a taste of it, this is the sensitivity of ear (based on listening tests) with respect to frequency of speed variation:

We have seen this happen to other threads. Too bad, this had been an interesting topic.
 
Maybe I can suggest a way to make this interesting again.
The ongoing majority of choice on tt's since the mid 70s at least has been belt drive. The Linn LP12 buried the Technics SP10, and pretty much all tt's from that point have been belt drive, so much so that idler drive, rim drive and esp DD have been dirty words.
Then a decade ago, the re emegence of idler started w/the modding and beefing up of esp Garrard 301's to a point where idlers cannot be ignored anymore, and now a handful of top contenders in the idler/DD/rim drive camp are coming thru - Saskia, GP Monaco, Dobbins Kodo The Beat, modded SP10's, Wave Kinetics NVS, Brinkmann Bardo, TTWeights, Trans Fi Salvation.
So rather than bat about the maybe redundant concepts of which drive is better, get back to what audiofools do best, talk about their choice subjectively and why they made a change.
So just why have people like me and many others made the switch from belt drive to idler/DD/rim, why do we think it's the right choice, and what are we getting that we feel belt drive alternatives don't provide?
 
Maybe I can suggest a way to make this interesting again.
The ongoing majority of choice on tt's since the mid 70s at least has been belt drive. The Linn LP12 buried the Technics SP10, and pretty much all tt's from that point have been belt drive, so much so that idler drive, rim drive and esp DD have been dirty words.
Then a decade ago, the re emegence of idler started w/the modding and beefing up of esp Garrard 301's to a point where idlers cannot be ignored anymore, and now a handful of top contenders in the idler/DD/rim drive camp are coming thru - Saskia, GP Monaco, Dobbins Kodo The Beat, modded SP10's, Wave Kinetics NVS, Brinkmann Bardo, TTWeights, Trans Fi Salvation.
So rather than bat about the maybe redundant concepts of which drive is better, get back to what audiofools do best, talk about their choice subjectively and why they made a change.
So just why have people like me and many others made the switch from belt drive to idler/DD/rim, why do we think it's the right choice, and what are we getting that we feel belt drive alternatives don't provide?

Nice post Spirit. You forgot to mention the VPI DD. I think it is fascinating that one company, VPI, has offered competing tables with all three drive types. As implementation is so important, it is no wonder that the various DD tables, for instance, all sound different from each other. It is clear, to many at least, that speed, and how to control it, is critical to every good table, but it becomes important to address the other issues of how to deal with energy, internal and external, that distinguishes the sound of different designs.

Perhaps we could discuss choices like high mass vs. low mass, suspension vs. non suspension, different energy absorption for dissipation, etc. Or even specifically, why the AF1 and AF2 sound so similar and yet have such different prices.

I like Spirits suggestion of hearing why members have switched from one drive type to another.
 
Thanx Peter. In my early upgrading career, belt drive was where it was at. I lusted after a Linn Sondek LP12, and this was as much sold as the new paradigm to beat the "sterile" sound of the prevalent DD's of the day, as for any other reason. And as a sound, the LP12 was unbeatable, although I'm certain I didn't hear any good DD's or idlers (the work being done now w/SP10s and 301's was just not a concern in the late 70's/early 80's) to compare. In the mid 90s I ended up buying a belt drive Xerxes X and then progressed on to a Michell Orbe. Both were fine examples of the belt drive art, but over time I found I didn't get on w/either, esp when I started getting really good digital in my room w/my Emm Labs CDSA SE. At that moment I was running the Orbe, and it just seemed overly warm and imprecise in comparison to the CDSA, despite being ahead on tone and involvement.
I progressed on to listening to a couple of contenders at a higher price/engineering level at home, the SME 20, and TW Acustic AC3, and even though a lot was better, they weren't a sufficient jump in quality to justify the price hike, aspects of the presentation weren't improved that much.
It was during this time that via the Web I became aware of the resurgence of interest in DDs and idlers, and reports esp on modded 301's seemed to bring together the promise of mating the tone and natural warmth of analog, w/greater precision and dynamics I felt my cdp was better than my tt at.
It was at this point I became aware of the Trans Fi Salvation rim drive tt, and auditioning it straight after the SME 20 and TW AC3, and of course versus my incumbent Orbe, was a real revelation. I really lost none of the natural warmth of my belt drives, but got a kind of clarity, precision and stop start quality I thought only possible from digital, which I didn't fully hear in the Xerxes, Orbe, SME 20 or TW AC3. And I've not regretted my move away from belt drive.
 
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It would be interesting to hear ,unsighted all three VPI drive types, all three tables fitted with the same arm and cartridge.
Then compare the subjective opinion with the measured performance.(...)
Keith.

The VPI DD performance can not be generalized as a typical direct drive. As far as I know the VPI DD and the Continuum Caliburn use ThinGap cogless motors - a revolutionary and expensive step, as the very large effective area stator does not include magnetic materials, known for hysteresis effects, but a complex system of coils that can create a constant high torque drive to the close dual rotor system.

Last weekend I listened to a Caliburn versus the AirForce one. Although tonearms and cartridge were not the same, and opinions on single pieces of equipment are always system dependent, I preferred the Caliburn for its more natural sound of a large orchestra. However the Caliburn was seating on a Hertzan RS150 active table and the AF1 on a classical stand.

Again, unless we are stereotyping the sound of a few old models, its not possible to have a valid generalization. Better implementations of each technique can shuffle our particular conclusions.
 
The VPI DD performance can not be generalized as a typical direct drive. As far as I know the VPI DD and the Continuum Caliburn use ThinGap cogless motors - a revolutionary and expensive step, as the very large effective area stator does not include magnetic materials, known for hysteresis effects, but a complex system of coils that can create a constant high torque drive to the close dual rotor system.

Have you heard the VPI DD yourself? It has the same sonic signature as their other products, you'd like it if you're fan and not if you never cared for their tables…

Last weekend I listened to a Caliburn versus the AirForce one. Although tonearms and cartridge were not the same, and opinions on single pieces of equipment are always system dependent, I preferred the Caliburn for its more natural sound of a large orchestra. However the Caliburn was seating on a Hertzan RS150 active table and the AF1 on a classical stand.

Again, unless we are stereotyping the sound of a few old models, its not possible to have a valid generalization. Better implementations of each technique can shuffle our particular conclusions.

That pesky "Natural" again :)! Maybe the cartridges but the stand has nothing to do with the difference you heard, do remember what they were Francesco? Reality is that the TT plays a main role when it comes to "Natural"...

david
 
Have you heard the VPI DD yourself? It has the same sonic signature as their other products, you'd like it if you're fan and not if you never cared for their tables…

I only listened to VPI´s (not the DD) a few times in systems I did not know well - not enough to have an opinion.

That pesky "Natural" again :)! Maybe the cartridges but the stand has nothing to do with the difference you heard, do remember what they were Francesco? Reality is that the TT plays a main role when it comes to "Natural"...

david

Perhaps. The Caliburn/Cobra used an AirTight PC1 and the AF1 a top Koetsu / Graham.
 
A friend who has a KAB Strobe disk told me that his VPI was dead on accurate. When I put the TimeLine on, the dot moved all over the place. My friend thinks the weight difference between his clamp and the TimeLine accounts for the test results and thus dismisses the TimeLine as an accurate testing device.

We are digressing a bit, but...

Here's why the dot was all over the place, and why the TimeLine's weight affects speed measurement: below is a video I prepared for you of the VPI's speed accuracy (set with the KAB) playing a 1kHz test tone, and I am measuring the output frequency at the amplifier terminals. As you can see the accuracy is about 0.2% to 0.3% - hardly state of the art but definitely not all over, but keep in mind that this includes inaccuracies (e.g. speed variations) in the production chain of the LP as well, plus belt tension issues (which, BTW, is why I am replacing the rubber belt with a silk thread). However, it clearly demonstrates why the TimeLine is a "flawed testing device" as I had characterized it back then, when used JUST as such - i.e. my measurement is NOT all over the place, unlike the dot. On the other hand, the TimeLine IS a very good testing device for measuring *average* speed IF you also use it to set speed and as the exclusive center weight from that point on. So, in many ways, I am glad people didn't post videos of their experiences with the TimeLine, because I don't know whether they would suspect they would have to re-set speed with it first.

 

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