Belt Drive vs Direct Drive and which one?

[skinnyfla]

... thanks for all the input here again. I have for now sent my Brinkmann in for service and will have the Motor upgraded to the latest version also used in the 2022 Balance... the bearing has already been modified by Brinkmann 5 years ago and is on the same level... I will then see what change in quality it brings and just maybe I will stay with the LaGrange and invest a lot more in the arm and a better MM phono stage suiting my SUT... parallel I will have my first listening session with some of the models/turntables suggested here soon... really looking forward to the journey

 

[Argonaut]

.. thanks for all the input here again. I have for now sent my Brinkmann in for service and will have the Motor upgraded to the latest version also used in the 2022 Balance...

Good plan , you may find yourself more than pleased enough whilst saving yourself a fair wad of cash

 

[bonzo75]

... thanks for all the input here again. I have for now sent my Brinkmann in for service and will have the Motor upgraded to the latest version also used in the 2022 Balance... the bearing has already been modified by Brinkmann 5 years ago and is on the same level... I will then see what change in quality it brings and just maybe I will stay with the LaGrange and invest a lot more in the arm and a better MM phono stage suiting my SUT... parallel I will have my first listening session with some of the models/turntables suggested here soon... really looking forward to the journey

You need to find better carts

 

[exupgh12]

You need to find better carts

Could you offer a suggestion, please?

 

[bonzo75]

Could you offer a suggestion, please?

For you best is to visit iaxel and byrdparis. You will get to hear so many carts between them.

skinnyfla likes rock. Brinkmann is a very nice table, he has the Miyajima - which, apart from the fact that i I don’t like it, I think will be too polite with the BB for Rock.

I personally would suggest the Dava field coil but skinny fla should listen to a few, including airtight and atlas lambda.

 

[skinnyfla]

You need to find better carts

... nah, I`m actually very happy with my cart. I chose it carefully out of a wide range of carts up to 7k and after many months of listening... I find the Miyajima to be the best for my taste, very musical, not at all analytical and never on the bright/harsh side - especially with not so perfect recordings... thanks for the suggestions though

 

[bonzo75]

... nah, I`m actually very happy with my cart. I chose it carefully out of a wide range of carts up to 7k and after many months of listening... I find the Miyajima to be the best for my taste, very musical, not at all analytical and never on the bright/harsh side - especially with not so perfect recordings... thanks for the suggestions though

in those range of carts upto 7k, did you try SPU, Allaerts MC boron mk2, MSL?

 

[skinnyfla]

in those range of carts upto 7k, did you try SPU, Allaerts MC boron mk2, MSL?

... I`d have to look in my list which exact models I tried, but the cart is still newish, the Con. A. SUT is matching and I very much enjoy what I`m getting from the combination, so at this point, the cart is absolutely not my concern... ;-)

 

[bonzo75]

... I`d have to look in my list which exact models I tried, but the cart is still newish, the Con. A. SUT is matching and I very much enjoy what I`m getting from the combination, so at this point, the cart is absolutely not my concern... ;-)

i am just saying it will take you to a much higher upgrade than a change in table. You can do your investigations it can take you two, three years. Better to stay open to that than close it out

 

[skinnyfla]

i am just saying it will take you to a much higher upgrade than a change in table. You can do your investigations it can take you two, three years. Better to stay open to that than close it out

... I know, I experienced just that, when I changed from the Brinkmann modified EMT to Miyajima ;-) ... when the time comes for another change in cart, I will reconsider... but I have just been on that journey and feel happy with what I have/decided on at the moment.

 

[exupgh12]

... nah, I`m actually very happy with my cart. I chose it carefully out of a wide range of carts up to 7k and after many months of listening... I find the Miyajima to be the best for my taste, very musical, not at all analytical and never on the bright/harsh side - especially with not so perfect recordings... thanks for the suggestions though

I've been loyal to Miyajima cartridges for years, primarily for their consistent performance. However, as I approach the time to replace my cartridge this year, I find myself contemplating whether I should opt for something more dynamic or one that can extract finer details. Despite this consideration, I'm finding it difficult to stray from Miyajima as I've been thoroughly satisfied with the sound quality they deliver.

 

[skinnyfla]

I've been loyal to Miyajima cartridges for years, primarily for their consistent performance. However, as I approach the time to replace my cartridge this year, I find myself contemplating whether I should opt for something more dynamic or one that can extract finer details. Despite this consideration, I'm finding it difficult to stray from Miyajima as I've been thoroughly satisfied with the sound quality they deliver.

… had more resolving/more detail, more dynamics, more this and that… I always found a downside after long term listening… the miyajima is just very musical and never falls on the bright/harsh side… after 300 hours of breaking in, combined with a matching SUT and with the rest of my system… very happy… obviously everyones taste is different and there are certainly many alternatives out there…

 

[Tangram]

... thanks for all the input here again. I have for now sent my Brinkmann in for service and will have the Motor upgraded to the latest version also used in the 2022 Balance... the bearing has already been modified by Brinkmann 5 years ago and is on the same level... I will then see what change in quality it brings and just maybe I will stay with the LaGrange and invest a lot more in the arm and a better MM phono stage suiting my SUT... parallel I will have my first listening session with some of the models/turntables suggested here soon... really looking forward to the journey

This is a great path forward. It’s fun to buy shiny new things but at the high level you are already at with your analog front end, any change could potentially be a step back. Thus, an incremental approach is not just the most cost-effective way to go, it’s the correct way to go.

 

[skinnyfla]

This is a great path forward. It’s fun to buy shiny new things but at the high level you are already at with your analog front end, any change could potentially be a step back. Thus, an incremental approach is not just the most cost-effective way to go, it’s the correct way to go.

... thanks - and yes, it seems like the right thing to do for now

 

[Zeotrope]

For those that missed it, Nagra’s 70th Anniversary turntable/tonearm was belt drive. This no holds barred Swiss made precision machine represents their best effort to distill their 70 years of exceptionalism to its essence. I think they succeeded.

Nagra Debuts its New Reference Anniversary Turntable/Tonearm Record Playback System

Romanel, Switzerland – Wednesday 24th November 2021—Nagra celebrates 70 years with a limited edition Reference Anniversary Turntable. According to the press release, the new turntable is the result of four year’s worth of R&D by a team of designers and engineers in the fields of applied physics...

www.analogplanet.com

The Nagra Reference Turntable is actually a hybrid belt/idler drive. There's more info on this unique drive mechanism in the thread for the turntable in this forum. It's not a traditional belt drive at all.

 

[Another Johnson]

The Nagra Reference Turntable is actually a hybrid belt/idler drive. There's more info on this unique drive mechanism in the thread for the turntable in this forum. It's not a traditional belt drive at all.

Intrigued, I tried to find pictures. Here is one.



This is a traditional belt drive in mechanical engineering design. The idlers are to precisely set tension, and to minimize span lengths so that transverse vibration is minimal and natural frequencies are high. It looks like a well thought out layout. Nagra execution is always impressive.

If I were looking to drop well into 6 figures for a TT, I think I’d end up with this one.

 

[Zeotrope]

Interesting, thanks for the description. Note also how close one of the pulleys is to the platter hub. And of course there are two motors, in a push-pull configuration. According to someone who works at Nagra, one motor is optimized for torque and the other for speed, but I don't think that's correct. The motors are under the blue dampening rings.

 

[Another Johnson]

Interesting, thanks for the description. Note also how close one of the pulleys is to the platter hub. And of course there are two motors, in a push-pull configuration. According to someone who works at Nagra, one motor is optimized for torque and the other for speed, but I don't think that's correct. The motors are under the blue dampening rings.

I do not work for Nagra, but looking at the layout, I think that close proximity to the platter is part of the span minimization and tension control strategy. The Nagra tape recorder drive was extremely well done. I loved it for field recording as well as in the lab.

I have never seen a turntable belt drive that was as costly. Compared to the other high end TTs extant, the Nagra looks to me like Nagra engineering and execution are tops.

 

[Zeotrope]

I do not work for Nagra, but looking at the layout, I think that close proximity to the platter is part of the span minimization strategy. The Nagra tape recorder drive was extremely well done. I loved it for field recording as well as in the lab.

I have never seen a turntable belt drive that was as costly. Compared to the other high end TTs extant, the Nagra looks to me like Nagra engineering and execution are tops.

Very interesting, thank you. Nagra today gets most of its revenue from security devices. I truly believe that the audio business has a 'build the best or nothing' culture. They do it out of pride and of a desire to build the best components available, not primarily to maximize profit.

Yes, the Reference TT is extremely expensive (although on the low end of what ultra high-end turntables cost today). It is a cost no object design, meaning that Nagra would have made it twice as expensive if they felt there was a sonic benefit to be achieved.

It's interesting that Nagra has sold 70 units in ~2 years, while in about the same period of time, I have heard that OMA has sold a grand total of 0 turntables (not counting Framer's).

 

[Zeotrope]

More pictures and comments on the drive system here:

Upcoming Nagra turntable

Are there any other high end turntables with more than one motor? Seems like multiple motors are a great way to increase torque without the drawbacks of a larger motor. And this is something you can’t do with direct drive. Air Force One and One Premium use a fairly simple and small industrial...

www.whatsbestforum.com

In the cutaway, the blue ringed cylinder is one of the two motors. I don't understand what the other cylinders are, however?