Idlers vs Direct Drive vs Belt Drive

spiritofmusic

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Marc, I think there are numerous variables, all highly important in the playback of vinyl. For example, the type of suspension system that the TT utilizes...or lack of. The motor and type, the arm to plinth fixing mechanism, the drive system and on and on. There are pluses and minuses to all types of drive system. Personally, I prefer a belt drive with suspension...which is why I am a 'Linnie'.
If one listens to the various motor control systems that are available for the Linn, there is a considerable difference in SQ between the entry level Majik system, the upgraded stand alone Lingo system and finally the Radikal D system. Like I said, everything matters---Improve speed control and the SQ increases. Improve isolation, same thing, etc, etc.:)

Davey, I'm very aware of that. Add in arm-tt synergy, and cart-phono synergy, and the variables are literally endless. But I have to say the biggest difference to me by far imho seems to be going from belt drive to dd/idler/rim.
Initially I thought, incorrectly, it was that belt was not consistent in speed. Now I think it's how speed is maintained religiously, esp in dealing w/stylus drag. What I'm finding is that high torque dd/idler/rim seems to produce a dynamism and non smearing in bass that I don't hear in belt drives. Now once we have this, one can then go on to get further variations by applying the usual list of choices - materials/suspension or not/isolation/arm-cart-phono choice.
So for me, getting the rim drive to optimise w/magnetic bearing and feet, and amazing synergy w/Vic's legendary air bearing linear tracker is critical too.
But since this is a thread about drive types...
 

Benanton

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I'm going to draw down on only mentioning my Salvation, the Monaco and the Saskia, otherwise this thread will just get into a blind alley.
I'm really surprised, and disappointed, that other than me and Keith, noone is commenting on moving to dd/idler/rim from belt.
Maybe Audio Asylum or Pink Fish are the forums for these!
My contention remains that I've made the right choice, since I deeply believe high torque/high inertia combined w/good speed stability lends that extra edge of dynamics to the other presentations I'm more used to, and I'm putting this down to the ability to keep pushing thru stylus drag and maintain consistency over shorter periods of time, w. l/t speed drift much less of an issue audibly.

OK I'll bite! I've been following this thread closely as I find it hits close to home. I have three turntables in my main system at the moment: Merrill-Williams 101.2/Tri-planar/Decca Refernce, Thorens TD-124/Ortofon AS-212S/SPU A95, and a Garrard 301/Schick/Decca Super Gold. The Thorens and Garrard are both fully restored and in a Woodsong and Vinylista plinth, respectively. Obviously I have different arms and carts going on each table, so it's difficult to give a truly objective comparison, but in a nutshell I'll say this: the 301 and 124 are both superior to the Merrill-Williams at pace, drive, and sheer musicality. Yes it's a bit of a cliche to claim these things about idlers, but in this situation I believe it to be the case. Obviously the Merrill-Williams isn't a top echelon belt drive, but it still offers a certain air that my idlers don't possess. It's a cleaner, and forgive this, but a more "digital" sound. In no way am I suggesting that this applies to all belt drive tables, but it's what I find in my room and my system. If I was to give up a table it would not be the idlers. If we bring value into it a fully restored, like new 301 or 124, with plinth and quality arm can be had for under $10,000, I can't imagine they can be beat for that.
 

spiritofmusic

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Benanton, thank you SO much for contributing.
You don't know how crazy I've been going w/not much company re going belt to non belt.
I concur fully w/you, yr idler/my rim, seem to share common characteristics of dynamics and verve, maybe at the expense of just a tad of texture/delicacy. In my case this could have veered into the territory of sterility w/my start-stop linear tracking arm, but somehow the verve imparted by high torque, w/excellent platter and plinth isolation via magnetic bearing and feet, mean my quotient of warmth isn't negated, and I feel I get the best balance of neutrality/dynamics/detail retrieval/natural tonal warmth.
I would suggest to you to max out isolation on yr idlers, look at the Spiers And Robertson air rolling table, good down to 3Hz, in effect a modern day bullet-proof Vibraplane, and a quarter the price of Herzan/Accurion active isolation.
 

Benanton

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My pleasure! My experience is relatively limited compared to many here, so I'm not confident enough to say that the characteristics of my idlers CAN'T be had by the best belt drives, though that indeed could be the case. I also have zero exposure to quality DD's so unfortunately can't comment on them.

Isolation is an area I hope to address in the future, but for now I have Track Audio footers on Box Furniture racks, none of which is too shabby.
 

spiritofmusic

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I'm learning that the trick is in the application of tech once you choose a tech that "speaks" to you.
I'm not a fan of belt drives anymore, but if Dave wants to permanently donate his American Sound to me, I guess I could just about put my Salvation away!
You and I are both enthralled by the extra dynamic excitement and probably bigger bass end of idler/rim presentation, but then you have to get the rest right to max this advantage, and not find it's negated by disadvantages elsewhere.

A new twist on GP Monaco, w/a lot of pretty skeptical forum guys not falling for the GP measuring protocol.
Google: "Monaco Gp - actual v average speed", a 38!!!page thread on Pink Fish Media, and there's not a lot of love for GP, incl an SME guy who is livid GP keep claiming their Monaco is TWENTY TIMES MORE ACCURATE than the SME 30.
Keith does get quite a bit of flack there, unreasonably I contend.
 

PeterA

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I'm really surprised, and disappointed, that other than me and Keith, noone is commenting on moving to dd/idler/rim from belt.

Marc, perhaps if you asked who has switched from dd/idler/rim TO belt and why they did so, the response would be different.

I once had a Denon DD turntable in college and then gave up my interest in stereos. In 1993 I got back into it but bought a CD player instead. In about 2005 I got back into audio seriously and bought an SME Model 10 basically because that was the recommendation of my dealer. I then upgraded that to my current table.

It might be interesting to see if people have actually owned many turntables and if so, were they of the same drive type or did they move around from one type to another. I suspect not many people have as much experience with as many reference level tables of different drive types as David.
 

spiritofmusic

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Peter, my first proper tt WAS a dd, a jvc w/integral "hard" linear tracking arm (plastic stick in a slot LOL), that sat atop a midi stack w/tuner and integrated amp under, and beefy bookshelf spkrs beside. The heady days of the early 80s.
It was a MARVEL of packed features and miniturisation, being JUST wider and deeper than 12".
But it sounded like crap, pure and simple. And it took me no willpower to then go to belt drive, a Dual 505 to start in mid '80's, then Rega 2 in early '90's, then the 3 in mid '90's, then Roksan Xerxes X in late '90's, Michell Orbe (modded subsequently w/Origin Live motor, and Pederson plinth/armboard kit) thruout the '00's...

...and now full circle to non belt drive/linear tracker for the last 3 yrs.

So, like you, I went dd to belt - but then away from belt. You'll find a LOT of people started w/cheapo direct drives in the '80's like I did, and because they were plain awful the move to belt was pain free, logical, and that is the end of the journey for them (like y'self).
For me to reconsider moving late in the upgrading day away from belt was met w/so much self-generated doubt and skepticism, I'm AMAZED I took the plunge. And I'm so glad I did.
 
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Mosin

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Thanks Win, that was very informative. My question now is: Can one hear a difference during this 20 minute stabilization period? Marc seems to imply that he can because he does not listen during this time. I may check to see if my Sutherland TimeLine can show a speed variation between immediate start up and half an our later. I would think that component and lubricant temperature would not change enough to matter when stopping the platter to flip over a record. Marc writes that he keeps the platter spinning and I have read many other people do the same.

No, you can't hear any difference during the warming period. The instability is too low for that. Besides, the controller makes corrections for it, anyway. The Saskia was produced for years without any option for correction at all, and it was still highly regarded. The addition of an optional feedback feature is icing on the cake because it is always nice when something can be made even better.

Could you elaborate on your statement about the differences between rim and idler drives?

Rim drives have motors with the wheel attached directly to the motor shaft. This makes vibration harder to control than a traditional idler arrangement where the wheel is in a different assembly. Typically, they are harder to align and harder to keep quiet. It's very difficult to introduce any measure to control resonance with them because the motor and the wheel cannot be treated separately. Also, the rubber typically remains in contact with the rim, so it is possible to develop flats on it.

Mark Kelly wrote about tests that he had performed regarding behavior of the coupling that affected inertia. I'll try to find it for you.
 

spiritofmusic

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Sure Win, no doubt the weakest part of rim drive is by nature the thing that provides it's biggest selling point.
I know that Vic worked long and hard at increasing the rpm of the motor to over 200rpm, by using a smaller drive wheel of 1/2" diameter to mate w/an outsize platter of 17" diameter/20lb. This combination enabled a magic combination of max torque/max inertia/max speed stability w.no need for servo feedback. He then progressed to achieve max draining of vibrations away from the platter, w/the outsize platter in effect having an outer/inner separation, and use of Delrin rim wheel/Delrin stripe on platter, and structuring the motor itself so that as much extraneous energy goes away from the platter, into the motor base, and out of the system.
But Vic would be the first to admit, by mating the rim wheel direct to the motor spindle, and the rim wheel direct to the platter, more energy must be imparted to the stylus indirectly than belt drive/dd, or prob idler.
All I can say is that I detected more inner detail, more reverb, more decay, when comparing the Salvation to really well-engineered belt drives at 5x the price, and surely these are the very attributes that would be masked or smeared by too much energy/rumble being imparted from the motor to the stylus. I contend that he has scored a major triumph in getting the best of of rim drive attributes ie high torque/high inertia/speed stability, to mate w/minimising of rumble transmission, so achieving the dynamics and verve of non belt while not losing what we love about belt drive ie texture, tone, inner detail.
 
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microstrip

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Peter, this one is for you. The original Timeline concept;


david

Great movie.

BTW, my Edison phonograph is belt driven and uses a leather belt - perhaps I should try a tape belt or modify it for rim drive. Then it should sound better than your EMT 927!
 

ddk

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Great movie.

BTW, my Edison phonograph is belt driven and uses a leather belt - perhaps I should try a tape belt or modify it for rim drive. Then it should sound better than your EMT 927!

You never know Francisco it might work:)!

Some of these old machines make beautiful music, wish I knew more about them...

david
 

ddk

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Obviously I have different arms and carts going on each table, so it's difficult to give a truly objective comparison...

Of course you can, the differences between these tables is too pronounced to miss over time specially when you're living with them long term and the other variables are known quantities and in your case.

david
 

Benanton

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May 1, 2015
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Of course you can, the differences between these tables is too pronounced to miss over time specially when you're living with them long term and the other variables are known quantities and in your case.

david

The only way to truly compare is if the same arm and cartridge are fitted to each table, and each played through the very same system at the same time.
Keith.

Well which is it gentleman? Such is the complexity of this hobby I suppose. Let's say I hear clear differences, I can generalize to the way they each do what they do, but without a "scientific" method it's technically just conjecture. Basically I know what the differences are, I simply can't prove what the differences are.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
When I visited David in July and spent 4 days listening to each of his TT's I was fortunate to hear them with the same arm and the same cartridge, electronics etc and I can say that each of them sounded different. The two in his museum that I lusted after were The American Sound and the EMT 927. Having said that I am quite happy with my belt driven TT. This thread is but conjecture and speculation on the part of any poster unless he has several in his system by which he can comment. David however has all of the turntables and owns countless SME 3012R arms that doing the comparison is very quick.

As an aside I was impressed with how very quick Davids EMT 927 reached speed. I might be exaggerating because I wasn't looking at my watch but it seemed to be well under 10 seconds but then I guess someone will say how accurate. IIRC David used a strobe
 

ddk

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Well which is it gentleman? Such is the complexity of this hobby I suppose. Let's say I hear clear differences, I can generalize to the way they each do what they do, but without a "scientific" method it's technically just conjecture. Basically I know what the differences are, I simply can't prove what the differences are.

A forum of this kind by its very nature is mostly made up of people's opinions and experiences, we won't have a forum if undisputed universally accepted and understood proof (if even such an animal existed!) was demanded for everything shared here...

david
 

ddk

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If you are evaluating the contribution of one particular component, then all the others have to kept the same, I would have thought that obvious.
Keith.

How many times did you claim that the Monaco tt is the best and better than anything else you owned in this thread Keith? Did you compare the Monaco to all your old tables under the exact same conditions you demand from others before submitting your thoughts? Apparently that wasn't a requirement for you.
david
 

ddk

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The only direct comparison I have been able to conduct here ,was two identical turntables, two identical tonearms ,but two different Dynavector cartridges, regarding the Monaco I only claim that it measures better than anything else.
FYI I had to write to Alvin for five years before he allowed me to represent GPA.
Keith

Fine, do you have your own data or has Alvin measured everything else with the exact same test equipment, side by side, simultaneously in the exact same setup for you to make such a claim?

david
 

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