Top Wing Seiryu arrives at Believe High Fidelity

May 30, 2010
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I would not worry, Tang. Not everyone will be satisfied with your reports of what you hear, or your methods of comparison. You are not a professional reviewer, nor are you paid for sharing your impressions. I appreciate your efforts and willingness to write in these forums. You are only able to do what you can within your limits of time and experience. As you own many top flight examples of turntables, arms, and cartridges, I value your position as a hobbyist and collector and not as one who has a vested interest in the results. I like your style and your candor.
+1!
 

BruceD

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Dec 13, 2013
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Rather than going around in smart arse circles and contradicting yourself - stating that loading does not matter on cartridge like the RS - then stating Tango is not getting the best out of the RS as the loading is not correct.

What is the preferred loading from the manufacturer or by your esteemed self?

BTW - you do realise that a professional cartridge set up guy sets up all Tang's cartridges - so personally I have no doubt they are set up about as good as they can be.

I agree totally XV-1 frankly that Believe Hi Fi fellow was rather rude to Tang.

Good on our Thai Resident for his forthright opinion . WBF should not degenerate into a Dealer Promotions Forum.


BruceD
 
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Nov 19, 2015
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ibelieveinhifi.com
Rather than going around in smart arse circles and contradicting yourself - stating that loading does not matter on cartridge like the RS - then stating Tango is not getting the best out of the RS as the loading is not correct.

What is the preferred loading from the manufacturer or by your esteemed self?

BTW - you do realise that a professional cartridge set up guy sets up all Tang's cartridges - so personally I have no doubt they are set up about as good as they can be.
This pretty much sums it all up.

Loading (at least in its context) is setting the 100, 220pf, etc on the phono. Setting Impedance is something else entirely.

In the case of the RS it is not sensitive to load, but it is sensitive to impedance. So no contradicting going on here I am afraid, just those people who are interpreting loading for something that it is not or who do not understand the difference between the two.

The impedance setting I have found to be ideal I did not release in order to ascertain whether or not Tangos setup man is doing a proper job. I do realize Tango is not the setup guy, but while you have no doubt they are properly setup I most certainly never take that for granted. Moving forward I have found 1k and sometimes even 47K will sound better than 280 or 470. Phono dependant, but definitely not the norm for lowput. By contrast the Etsuro Urushi not only likes low, but current mode which can only be found on very limited options of Phonos.

What folks dont seem to realize is that about half the systems I do a setup (or my dealers) in are not done correctly. Having an expensive system doesn't make you an expert. There is no nice way to confront someone on this point and of course I am the ******* for pushing back.

I haven't ever not disclosed my financial interest in the brands I carry so anytime I post on those same brands it will always be met with scrutiny. Par for the course....
 
Nov 19, 2015
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ibelieveinhifi.com
Joshua, WBF started as predominantly as a place for enthusiasts and punters to talk about gear, concepts, sounds.

If engineers did chime in, it was never to hawk their wares, but to genuinely add to the discourse (Ralph of Atmasphere being a good example).

Only in the last couple of years has WBF morphed into a hybrid with manufacturers/designers AND NOW dealers getting involved.

Now there’s a lot more “fake news” potentially about.

So for you to in effect say “I’m alright Jack”, but will “tolerate” more mixed reports from those like Tang, well hey, thanks for the courtesy 樂.
That's fair, but I don't disagree with my position. As a reseller I have to know everything about this cart just as much as what it is, but also what it needs. So far no one has said my outrageous claims of its performance are off, maybe that they dont prefer certain aspects of it to other carts which is pretty normal.

But Tang did mention he sets them all the same (and that he is not the guy setting them up) so if he is not getting the best out of the cart then I call it out. If sensitivity to that prevails over my own experience to get the most out of it so be it.
 

853guy

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Aug 14, 2013
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spiritofmusic said:
Joshua, WBF started as predominantly as a place for enthusiasts and punters to talk about gear, concepts, sounds.

If engineers did chime in, it was never to hawk their wares, but to genuinely add to the discourse (Ralph of Atmasphere being a good example).

Only in the last couple of years has WBF morphed into a hybrid with manufacturers/designers AND NOW dealers getting involved.

Now there’s a lot more “fake news” potentially about.

So for you to in effect say “I’m alright Jack”, but will “tolerate” more mixed reports from those like Tang, well hey, thanks for the courtesy
I agree totally XV-1 frankly that Believe Hi Fi fellow was rather rude to Tang.

Good on our Thai Resident for his forthright opinion . WBF should not degenerate into a Dealer Promotions Forum.


BruceD
Hello spirit, hello BruceD,

If we understand “fake news” as a form of harm, perhaps it’s worth asking which is potentially likely to cause more harm:

A dealer/distributor/manufacturer with skin-in-the-game attempting to disseminate information in which any intentional/unintentional disinformation may have real-world consequences for themselves; or a punter/blogger/reviewer with no skin-in-the-game attempting to disseminate information in which any intentional/unintentional disinformation will have zero real-world consequences for themselves?

I may not agree with everything a dealer/distributor/manufacturer might say, but skin-in-the-game suggests the dealer/distributor/manufacturer must be more prudent in managing any disinformation - the anonymous forum punter with a few idle minutes can be much more fast and loose with their (dis)information because it costs them nothing to do so (1).

I believe this was only very recently relevant apropos an apology issued to a small, boutique manufacturer for comments made from someone with no skin-in-the-game.

Food for thought, perhaps.

Best,

853guy

(1) That's not to suggest a dealer/distributor/manufacturer cannot ever be a source of disinformation, only that the dealer/distributor/manufacturer is far more likely to be susceptible to any downside from propagation of that disinformation, in a way no keyboard warrior ever will be.
 

XV-1

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May 24, 2010
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This pretty much sums it all up.

Loading (at least in its context) is setting the 100, 220pf, etc on the phono. Setting Impedance is something else entirely.

In the case of the RS it is not sensitive to load, but it is sensitive to impedance. So no contradicting going on here I am afraid, just those people who are interpreting loading for something that it is not or who do not understand the difference between the two.

The impedance setting I have found to be ideal I did not release in order to ascertain whether or not Tangos setup man is doing a proper job. I do realize Tango is not the setup guy, but while you have no doubt they are properly setup I most certainly never take that for granted. Moving forward I have found 1k and sometimes even 47K will sound better than 280 or 470. Phono dependant, but definitely not the norm for lowput. By contrast the Etsuro Urushi not only likes low, but current mode which can only be found on very limited options of Phonos.

What folks dont seem to realize is that about half the systems I do a setup (or my dealers) in are not done correctly. Having an expensive system doesn't make you an expert. There is no nice way to confront someone on this point and of course I am the ******* for pushing back.

I haven't ever not disclosed my financial interest in the brands I carry so anytime I post on those same brands it will always be met with scrutiny. Par for the course....
Where has anyone talked about capacitance loading on this thread? MC's are generally not susceptible to capacitance - hence my original question on loading as the RS is not quite a MC or MM.

We have been discussing resistive/impedance loading depending on the phono stage. Tang said his Ayon phono was loaded at 300 ohms, not 300pf. He also tried adjusting loading on his EMT - again - nothing to do with capacitance loading.

Anyway, you have now said the RS liked to be loaded open at 1k or 47k - instead of lower.

What impedance does the RS prefer when using a SUT?


cheers
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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853, are you referring to me re my frankly misleading comments re Wheel Fi Horns, which I was happy to withdraw when the error of my ways was pointed out to me?
If so, I was guilty as charged on that one, but not relevant here I think.
 
Nov 19, 2015
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ibelieveinhifi.com
Where has anyone talked about capacitance loading on this thread? MC's are generally not susceptible to capacitance - hence my original question on loading as the RS is not quite a MC or MM.

We have been discussing resistive/impedance loading depending on the phono stage. Tang said his Ayon phono was loaded at 300 ohms, not 300pf. He also tried adjusting loading on his EMT - again - nothing to do with capacitance loading.

Anyway, you have now said the RS liked to be loaded open at 1k or 47k - instead of lower.

What impedance does the RS prefer when using a SUT?


cheers
In the context of not assuming anything I wanted to think that his version of loading was indeed relative to impedance, but given that he set it low at 300ohms flattens out the sound considerably. So if he was adjusting impedance he would have noticed that it likes to be set higher .
 
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Apr 14, 2018
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Dear sirs,

We are talking about a core less design as if any old cobbler could make it.

The red sparrow is the best transducer bar none.

Do not be put off by hyperbole,buy as many as you can afford.

AE posters cry wolf with aplomb normally associated with direct marketing. In this case they are right and fair to do so.

It would be sad to see others miss out on something so worthy of investigation.

Kind regards,G.
 

spiritofmusic

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General, Joshua and the AE clan have also gone crazy over the Top Wing Blue, any thoughts on that one?
 

PeterA

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Dec 7, 2011
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Perhaps Tang has had a chance to put more hours on his Top Wing RS cartridge. If so, can he report on any changes to the sound? I do not know if the cartridge is set up optimally, and perhaps more experimentation with loading and impedance settings will lead to improved sound. Or it may not. It is a worthwhile discussion to be had, and we would all learn something about the importance of these parameters to the design of this particular cartridge.

I just wish Believe High Fidelity had sent Tang a Private Message to discuss these issues and offer his advice behind the scenes. Tang could then have reported back any new impressions of the sound.
 

853guy

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Aug 14, 2013
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853, are you referring to me re my frankly misleading comments re Wheel Fi Horns, which I was happy to withdraw when the error of my ways was pointed out to me?
If so, I was guilty as charged on that one, but not relevant here I think.
It was to add context to your comment here:

spiritofmusic said:
WBF started as predominantly as a place for enthusiasts and punters to talk about gear, concepts, sounds.

If engineers did chime in, it was never to hawk their wares, but to genuinely add to the discourse (Ralph of Atmasphere being a good example).

Only in the last couple of years has WBF morphed into a hybrid with manufacturers/designers AND NOW dealers getting involved.

Now there’s a lot more “fake news” potentially about.
The inference being that somehow because dealers are now involved (with stated vested interests) there’s “a lot more “fake news” potentially about”.

Is there though?

Are dealer/distributor/manufacturers more likely to peddle in disinformation than an anonymous punter/blogger? Is disinformation the sole reserve of those with vested interests? Are enthusiasts and punters more likely to avoid disinformation because they’re “free” of potential conflicts of interest and the consequences of peddling in disinformation? Are engineers therefore incapable of propagating disinformation simply because of the assumption they’re here to “genuinely add to the discourse”?

I’d say each needs to be answered on a case-by-case basis.

I may not share nor endorse all of Joshua’s posts, and I’m certainly not defending him (no do I believe I need do so), but skin-in-the-game is always relevant apropos accusations of misinformation.

My point is and remains that we would perhaps do well to discuss any reports of “fake news” in the context of harm (1) rather than vested interests (2). In the specific case mentioned above, the small, boutique manufacturer was far more vulnerable to potential downside from misleading comments made on an online forum than the poster who made them.

Hope that clarifies things.

Best!

853guy

(1) One thousand false reports of a Yeti sighting in downtown NYC during rush hour will not cause anywhere the level of harm as a single false report of an outbreak of the Marburg virus in downtown NYC during rush hour. Consider that in the latter case, thousands of police, medical professionals, biosafety specialists and government agents will be rallied to a prevent an outbreak, and thousands if not tens of thousands of citizens will attempt to flee the city, potentially causing harm to themselves and/or others in the process. Potential for harm defines dis/misinformation more than the source of the dis/misinformation itself. It's why it's a criminal act to knowingly report a false bomb threat, but not to say you saw Bigfoot.

(2) We should not conflate vested interests with conflict of interest. It’s possible to have vested interests and yet operate ethically, even if optics suggest otherwise.
 

spiritofmusic

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Sure 853, I don’t want to give the impression that dealers spread fake news.
Indeed fake news is just, ahem, news.
Ask the BBC, so called unbiased purveyors of just news, complicit in plenty of biased reporting.
Everyone is at it.
I’m sure I am too.
Conscious or not so conscious.
But no doubt the fuller involvement of dealers is just something to be aware of.
As is maybe the exhuberance of punters.
In my time on WBF, I’ve positively plugged grounding boxes, a loom of cables, an isolation platform, a record cleaner.
And repeatedly plugged my fave brands.
Maybe readers should be wary of my words too.
 

853guy

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Sure 853, I don’t want to give the impression that dealers spread fake news.
Indeed fake news is just, ahem, news.
Ask the BBC, so called unbiased purveyors of just news, complicit in plenty of biased reporting.
Everyone is at it.
I’m sure I am too.
Conscious or not so conscious.
But no doubt the fuller involvement of dealers is just something to be aware of.
As is maybe the exhuberance of punters.
In my time on WBF, I’ve positively plugged grounding boxes, a loom of cables, an isolation platform, a record cleaner.
And repeatedly plugged my fave brands.
Maybe readers should be wary of my words too.
We are, spirit, we are.

Be well!

853guy
 

spiritofmusic

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I’m very well indeed, 853.
Maybe this needs its own thread.
I mean if you’re wary of my reports’ veracity, are you also of Ked’s travelogues, MikeL’s endless conveyor belt of pricey upgrades reports, Tang’s a/b carts tests on his multiple rigs etc?
I’d hate to be alone in potential suspicion.
 

PeterA

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Dec 7, 2011
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It was to add context to your comment here:



The inference being that somehow because dealers are now involved (with stated vested interests) there’s “a lot more “fake news” potentially about”.

Is there though?

Are dealer/distributor/manufacturers more likely to peddle in disinformation than an anonymous punter/blogger? Is disinformation the sole reserve of those with vested interests? Are enthusiasts and punters more likely to avoid disinformation because they’re “free” of potential conflicts of interest and the consequences of peddling in disinformation? Are engineers therefore incapable of propagating disinformation simply because of the assumption they’re here to “genuinely add to the discourse”?

I’d say each needs to be answered on a case-by-case basis.

I may not share nor endorse all of Joshua’s posts, and I’m certainly not defending him (no do I believe I need do so), but skin-in-the-game is always relevant apropos accusations of misinformation.

My point is and remains that we would perhaps do well to discuss any reports of “fake news” in the context of harm (1) rather than vested interests (2). In the specific case mentioned above, the small, boutique manufacturer was far more vulnerable to potential downside from misleading comments made on an online forum than the poster who made them.

Hope that clarifies things.

Best!

853guy

(1) One thousand false reports of a Yeti sighting in downtown NYC during rush hour will not cause anywhere the level of harm as a single false report of an outbreak of the Marburg virus in downtown NYC during rush hour. Consider that in the latter case, thousands of police, medical professionals, biosafety specialists and government agents will be rallied to a prevent an outbreak, and thousands if not tens of thousands of citizens will attempt to flee the city, potentially causing harm to themselves and/or others in the process. Potential for harm defines dis/misinformation more than the source of the dis/misinformation itself.

(2) We should not conflate vested interests with conflict of interest. It’s possible to have vested interests and yet operate ethically, even if optics suggest otherwise.
Yes, this post is a bit clearer. And I agree with your points. Are you implying that Tang is spreading disinformation or "fake news" because his cartridge is now assumed to be less than optimally set up? We do not know if that is the case. Perhaps it can be improved upon and then the sound will get better. Hopefully he will report back at some point and let us know. I tend to give Tang the benefit of the doubt and assume he is simply sharing his impressions of what he heard with this new cartridge and that his intentions are honest. Unfortunately, I am worried that he will leave this discussion and move on to better things.

I am interested in more comparative write ups describing in some detail how these Top Wing cartridges sound relative to other top tier alternatives. Tang attempted to do that.
 

853guy

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Aug 14, 2013
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Yes, this post is a bit clearer. And I agree with your points. Are you implying that Tang is spreading disinformation or "fake news" because his cartridge is now assumed to be less than optimally set up? We do not know if that is the case. Perhaps it can be improved upon and then the sound will get better. Hopefully he will report back at some point and let us know. I tend to give Tang the benefit of the doubt and assume he is simply sharing his impressions of what he heard with this new cartridge and that his intentions are honest. Unfortunately, I am worried that he will leave this discussion and move on to better things.

I am interested in more comparative write ups describing in some detail how these Top Wing cartridges sound relative to other top tier alternatives. Tang attempted to do that.
Hi Peter!

Hope you are well.

No, absolutely not - I am not at all implying Tango is spreading disinformation.

As far as my perspective goes, limited as it is, Tango confirmed he did not set up the cart but then later played around with loading via the EMT, and Joshua attempted to define some of the parameters he believes will confer the greatest benefits on the listener's enjoyment.

Does that invalidate Tango's subjective impressions? No, but on the other hand neither does it justify Joshua's responses. Both Tango and Joshua seem confident in their respective perspectives. It just means we are currently devoid of some information allowing us to better contextualise their comments - i.e., specific, repeatable, directly-comparable set-up variables which as with all things analogue often have large scale impacts on how one perceives performance.

As to Tango's and Joshua's intentions... I would never dare speculate, and especially so for two gentlemen who I've never met. Sometimes how one remediates a dispute matters more than the dispute itself.

I too hope we will be afforded greater insight into these carts as this thread progresses.

Be well, Peter.

853guy
 

spiritofmusic

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853, I salute your optimism that disputes get resolved etc etc.

Ked and I both wholly disagree on the efficacy of Mooks v Stacores under gear.

He says I used the wrong size of Mooks for my component and didn’t align them via their dots correctly.

I say he hobbled the effects of Stacore by not eliminating using the component’s rubber feet.

Did any of this lead to a resolution? No, it led to more entrenched biases. And “fake news” findings persisted.

As I say, I admire your blue sky thinking.
 

bonzo75

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853, I salute your optimism that disputes get resolved etc etc.

Ked and I both wholly disagree on the efficacy of Mooks v Stacores under gear.

He says I used the wrong size of Mooks for my component and didn’t align them via their dots correctly.

I say he hobbled the effects of Stacore by not eliminating using the component’s rubber feet.

Did any of this lead to a resolution? No, it led to more entrenched biases. And “fake news” findings persisted.

As I say, I admire your blue sky thinking.
Sorry, I offered to do a compare which you refused. Anyway, I don't see the relevance here.
 

853guy

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I’m very well indeed, 853.
Maybe this needs its own thread.
I mean if you’re wary of my reports’ veracity, are you also of Ked’s travelogues, MikeL’s endless conveyor belt of pricey upgrades reports, Tang’s a/b carts tests on his multiple rigs etc?
I’d hate to be alone in potential suspicion.
Hi Spirit,

It was meant as a joke, and I wrongly assumed you would get that given the numerous friendly exchanges we've had in the past. That it's been misinterpreted is regretful, and I shall be doubly cautious as to making assumptions like that from here on in. Perhaps I just suck at trying to be being funny.

Even from a cursory glance at my posting history, I would hope it's clear I've attempted to consistently demonstrate I consider opinions of hi-fi gear - defined by our experience and shaped by our preferences and biases - to be no more or less than that. That goes just as much for a person with 10,000 posts as one with 10; someone with a system worth $1 million as much as someone with a system worth $1000; someone with decades of experience (i.e. preconceived bias expressed with conviction) versus someone with none (who may therefore be less influenced by preconceived bias but unable to articulate their process); someone with years of live acoustic music attendance as someone who's only ever listened to EDM via headphones; someone who reviews for a living versus someone who's illiterate; someone who relies on appeals to authority to justify their observations versus someone who believes they're an authority in their own right.

They're all just opinions. And I try to hold them all pretty lightly, taking them on a case-by-case basis relative to their ability to avoid logical fallacies, especially my own.

I won't pretend to assume to know why you've felt the need to single out the posts of Ked, Mike L, and Tang as being worthy of "suspicion", as I prefer to use my time and energy to focus on the nature of the post rather than the nature of the poster.

Best,

853guy