Top Wing Seiryu arrives at Believe High Fidelity

Nov 19, 2015
1,043
1
38
Hutto TX
ibelieveinhifi.com
Around the beginning of next month brother.

david
Too close. Even with the LAAS show being cancelled I will still be flying out on the 5th on June coming back on the 12th. May end up missing the grand occasion :(
 

Tango

VIP/Donor
Mar 12, 2017
1,932
127
63
Bangkok
Here I was thinking that you were giving a comprehensive review of the RS....disappointing.
How did I miss this line. Disappoint of what? I wrote plenty good things about this cart.

My hearing and testing protocol must be substandard then.

Right now I clock 60 hrs on this cart. I changed the phono from Ayon to the EMT with continuous adjustable loading. Two days ago, I was playing with the loading adjustment knob for two hours. I know what I am hearing. But since my hearing is not so good, maybe I should just send this RS to Peter or Shane or Gian to listen to it for a month and write a comparative review. Peter has been living with Airtight and MSL while Shane has been living with Atlas and AtlasSL and Gian even has both Opus1 and AtlasSL. All of them should be more experience than me and not an industry associate.

Tang :)
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
9,013
106
63
London
I compared the Top wing to Allaerts boron mk2 and a bespoke cart of less than 0.2 mv made by Anamighty sound using the Schroeder CB arm and the Anamighty sound phono (anamighty is a vinyl services shop in Paris). I preferred the Anamighty sound cart the most- it was like a musical version of Lyra... Extremely detailed, fast, transparent, but with more decay and musicality than Lyra. Fast transients like Decca. The Allaerts came second with more body and depth than top wing, and better on vocals, while top wing had more liquid highs and details than the Allaerts. So, I kind of relate to Tang's comments. However this is not what Bill heard, and I would like to listen to these carts with the Thrax next. They are a dealer for top wing and extremely good at set up. They changed VTA by fractions to affect sound, it was quite interesting watching them in action.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
6,416
67
48
E. England
Ked, I’m sure you know as much as anyone that there can be a trade off in speed/agility v heft/density/bass extension.
This v well may be what you will hear in La Grange v Balance.
Certainly when I heard La Grange many moons ago, it seemed superior to TW AC3 and SME 20 (different dealers, different systems).
My guess is that for purely classical listening, the authority/heft/texture of Balance would mean more than perceived extra nimbleness of La Grange.
Just my 2 cents.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2011
4,937
34
48
North Shore of Boston
I compared the Top wing to Allaerts boron mk2 and a bespoke cart of less than 0.2 mv made by Anamighty sound using the Schroeder CB arm and the Anamighty sound phono (anamighty is a vinyl services shop in Paris). I preferred the Anamighty sound cart the most- it was like a musical version of Lyra... Extremely detailed, fast, transparent, but with more decay and musicality than Lyra. Fast transients like Decca. The Allaerts came second with more body and depth than top wing, and better on vocals, while top wing had more liquid highs and details than the Allaerts. So, I kind of relate to Tang's comments. However this is not what Bill heard, and I would like to listen to these carts with the Thrax next. They are a dealer for top wing and extremely good at set up. They changed VTA by fractions to affect sound, it was quite interesting watching them in action.
Ked, were they changing VTA during the initial cartridge set up proceedure, or after that to further fine tune the sound for different LPs? I suspect, as more listening impressions are shared for these new Top Wing cartridges, that people will find things they like and don't like so much. In this sense, they seem little different from other top tier cartridges, despite the incredible early reports. It is clear that no one cartridge does it all, and that they all have various strengths and weaknesses.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2011
4,937
34
48
North Shore of Boston
How did I miss this line. Disappoint of what? I wrote plenty good things about this cart.

My hearing and testing protocol must be substandard then.

Right now I clock 60 hrs on this cart. I changed the phono from Ayon to the EMT with continuous adjustable loading. Two days ago, I was playing with the loading adjustment knob for two hours. I know what I am hearing. But since my hearing is not so good, maybe I should just send this RS to Peter or Shane or Gian to listen to it for a month and write a comparative review. Peter has been living with Airtight and MSL while Shane has been living with Atlas and AtlasSL and Gian even has both Opus1 and AtlasSL. All of them should be more experience than me and not an industry associate.

Tang :)
I would not worry, Tang. Not everyone will be satisfied with your reports of what you hear, or your methods of comparison. You are not a professional reviewer, nor are you paid for sharing your impressions. I appreciate your efforts and willingness to write in these forums. You are only able to do what you can within your limits of time and experience. As you own many top flight examples of turntables, arms, and cartridges, I value your position as a hobbyist and collector and not as one who has a vested interest in the results. I like your style and your candor.
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
3,488
15
38
Utah
Too close. Even with the LAAS show being cancelled I will still be flying out on the 5th on June coming back on the 12th. May end up missing the grand occasion :(
We’ll figure out the dates to make it work when we’re closer to d-day!
davis
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
6,416
67
48
E. England
Peter, as you say not every component does it all, incl carts.
If this Top Wing did, I guess well heeled audiophiles would all flock to it.
And it seems it’s all in the install/dialling in as well.
Nothing new here.
What’s interesting is that the AE crowd have gone gaga over the Top Wings, and for the first time I’ve heard of reports on our side (Audiophile Bill, ZeroStarGeneral) that are backing up the hype.
As opposed to other AE epiphanies that get little or no feedback here eg Trinity, Divin, Pranawire, Wadax etc.
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
9,013
106
63
London
Ked, were they changing VTA during the initial cartridge set up proceedure, or after that to further fine tune the sound for different LPs? I suspect, as more listening impressions are shared for these new Top Wing cartridges, that people will find things they like and don't like so much. In this sense, they seem little different from other top tier cartridges, despite the incredible early reports. It is clear that no one cartridge does it all, and that they all have various strengths and weaknesses.
To tune your LPs, like you do. And I could hear differences that mattered
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
9,013
106
63
London
I would not worry, Tang. Not everyone will be satisfied with your reports of what you hear, or your methods of comparison. You are not a professional reviewer, nor are you paid for sharing your impressions. I appreciate your efforts and willingness to write in these forums. You are only able to do what you can within your limits of time and experience. As you own many top flight examples of turntables, arms, and cartridges, I value your position as a hobbyist and collector and not as one who has a vested interest in the results. I like your style and your candor.
Tang writes better than many reviewers. Also it helps he is not limited by set up. Across so many different phonos and arms and tables, we will get a better perspective than across one. So yes, his impression may, or may not, change.
 

Tango

VIP/Donor
Mar 12, 2017
1,932
127
63
Bangkok
Tang writes better than many reviewers. Also it helps he is not limited by set up. Across so many different phonos and arms and tables, we will get a better perspective than across one. So yes, his impression may, or may not, change.
Thanks for your kind words. One thing you know very well but many might not realize is that when evaluating a very good cart, if there is another very good cart or more installed next to it, it is so much easier to hear the difference than when you try in a system with single arm cart. Another thing about evaluating a very good cart in a single arm cart system is that given that this level of cart is very very good, it often can impress you so much and grab so much of your attention with its signature you get too excited of the new sound. And the fact that you just paid a high price for it part of you will try to justify the money you just spent. When honeymoon period is gone you will know whether it serves your preferences. Leave your ego behind and you will admit what I am saying is true.

Kind regards,
Tang
 
Nov 19, 2015
1,043
1
38
Hutto TX
ibelieveinhifi.com
How did I miss this line. Disappoint of what? I wrote plenty good things about this cart.

My hearing and testing protocol must be substandard then.

Right now I clock 60 hrs on this cart. I changed the phono from Ayon to the EMT with continuous adjustable loading. Two days ago, I was playing with the loading adjustment knob for two hours. I know what I am hearing. But since my hearing is not so good, maybe I should just send this RS to Peter or Shane or Gian to listen to it for a month and write a comparative review. Peter has been living with Airtight and MSL while Shane has been living with Atlas and AtlasSL and Gian even has both Opus1 and AtlasSL. All of them should be more experience than me and not an industry associate.

Tang :)
Oh Tang. Silly rabbit, you can play with the loading all day and that doesn't matter to a cartridge like the RS. I trust what you are hearing, just disappointed that you are not hearing all of it. If your dealer, or whomever is supplying you with the carts to test, didn't tell you the RS and Blue Dragon are not loading sensitive then shame on them.

OTOH by your own admission you are not listening to the RS at ts full potential. XV-1 as well as other wrote the following....

Hi Tang

You still haven't told us what impedance you load the cartridges at? ;) Is the Ayon running at 47k or what the SUT is loaded at?

And your response to that was....


Hi Shane,

I didn’t answer because I don’t know. My Ayon Phono is a custom one and I never asked the designer. It works well with all my carts so far. The normal Ayon Spheris has ~300 ohms.

The Airtight SUT is connected to the mm input of EMT phono with 47K. It has two selectable inputs. One for cart with 0.6-7 Ohm which is what I use with my MSL. The other is for cart with 7 - 40 Ohm. I understand the RS impedance is 12.3.

Tang

So if you don't know what impedance setting your RS is at how can you know that you are listening to the RS at all? Incremental changes in anything from VTA to VTF to Impedance make world of difference. This is why setup specialists take many hours to setup a table correctly. Maybe the terms loading and Impedance loading are not clear? So if your definition of loading is not "loading", but setting impedance than I am curious to which impedance setting you found the RS to sound best at. From your prior post you mentioned to set all the same.

I think you have certainly hit on its major virtues, but miss out on others for sure hence my disappointment. My disappointment is not "in you", but more "for you". As a music lover and the investment in all your systems it is a shame to not reach full potential when available.

On a side note, your writing good things about the RS is not a good thing or a bad thing. I pickup what I feel is the representation of my company without bearing to the opinions of my peers as I have listened to it and it has passed my criteria. I inform those interested of what I am doing and what is available for them to audition. The fact that you, Byrd, and other have chimed in is always nice to hear the thoughts of others, but never an expectation.
 
Nov 19, 2015
1,043
1
38
Hutto TX
ibelieveinhifi.com
Thanks for your kind words. One thing you know very well but many might not realize is that when evaluating a very good cart, if there is another very good cart or more installed next to it, it is so much easier to hear the difference than when you try in a system with single arm cart. Another thing about evaluating a very good cart in a single arm cart system is that given that this level of cart is very very good, it often can impress you so much and grab so much of your attention with its signature you get too excited of the new sound. And the fact that you just paid a high price for it part of you will try to justify the money you just spent. When honeymoon period is gone you will know whether it serves your preferences. Leave your ego behind and you will admit what I am saying is true.

Kind regards,
Tang
Well I certainly hope it isn't a honeymoon phase because I definitely didn't order just a pair. :)
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
6,416
67
48
E. England
“...and think again about sending it first thing in the morning”.
 

XV-1

Active Member
May 24, 2010
1,586
13
38
Sydney
Oh Tang. Silly rabbit, you can play with the loading all day and that doesn't matter to a cartridge like the RS. I trust what you are hearing, just disappointed that you are not hearing all of it. If your dealer, or whomever is supplying you with the carts to test, didn't tell you the RS and Blue Dragon are not loading sensitive then shame on them.

OTOH by your own admission you are not listening to the RS at ts full potential. XV-1 as well as other wrote the following....




And your response to that was....





So if you don't know what impedance setting your RS is at how can you know that you are listening to the RS at all? Incremental changes in anything from VTA to VTF to Impedance make world of difference. This is why setup specialists take many hours to setup a table correctly. Maybe the terms loading and Impedance loading are not clear? So if your definition of loading is not "loading", but setting impedance than I am curious to which impedance setting you found the RS to sound best at. From your prior post you mentioned to set all the same.

I think you have certainly hit on its major virtues, but miss out on others for sure hence my disappointment. My disappointment is not "in you", but more "for you". As a music lover and the investment in all your systems it is a shame to not reach full potential when available.

On a side note, your writing good things about the RS is not a good thing or a bad thing. I pickup what I feel is the representation of my company without bearing to the opinions of my peers as I have listened to it and it has passed my criteria. I inform those interested of what I am doing and what is available for them to audition. The fact that you, Byrd, and other have chimed in is always nice to hear the thoughts of others, but never an expectation.
Rather than going around in smart arse circles and contradicting yourself - stating that loading does not matter on cartridge like the RS - then stating Tango is not getting the best out of the RS as the loading is not correct.

What is the preferred loading from the manufacturer or by your esteemed self?

BTW - you do realise that a professional cartridge set up guy sets up all Tang's cartridges - so personally I have no doubt they are set up about as good as they can be.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
6,416
67
48
E. England
Joshua, WBF started as predominantly as a place for enthusiasts and punters to talk about gear, concepts, sounds.

If engineers did chime in, it was never to hawk their wares, but to genuinely add to the discourse (Ralph of Atmasphere being a good example).

Only in the last couple of years has WBF morphed into a hybrid with manufacturers/designers AND NOW dealers getting involved.

Now there’s a lot more “fake news” potentially about.

So for you to in effect say “I’m alright Jack”, but will “tolerate” more mixed reports from those like Tang, well hey, thanks for the courtesy .
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
9,013
106
63
London
Joshua, WBF started as predominantly as a place for enthusiasts and punters to talk about gear, concepts, sounds.

If engineers did chime in, it was never to hawk their wares, but to genuinely add to the discourse (Ralph of Atmasphere being a good example).

Only in the last couple of years has WBF morphed into a hybrid with manufacturers/designers AND NOW dealers getting involved.

Now there’s a lot more “fake news” potentially about.

So for you to in effect say “I’m alright Jack”, but will “tolerate” more mixed reports from those like Tang, well hey, thanks for the courtesy .
+1. Thanks for the courtesy, silly rabbit
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
6,416
67
48
E. England
Ked, to be into this hobby, it’s more like “crazy rabbit”.
 

About us

  • Founded in 2010 What's Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing