Top Wing Seiryu arrives at Believe High Fidelity

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
6,423
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E. England
853, you don’t suck at jokes.
I suck at trying not to be stuck up and taking myself too seriously.
The bane of the OCD audiofool, I guess.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
6,423
71
48
E. England
Ked, I did my own compare, as you did yours. I don’t need your offer tbh, but thanks anyway.

The fact you don’t see the relevance of my post is amusing to me at least. I suspect 853 gets it too.
 

Tango

VIP/Donor
Mar 12, 2017
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Where has anyone talked about capacitance loading on this thread? MC's are generally not susceptible to capacitance - hence my original question on loading as the RS is not quite a MC or MM.

We have been discussing resistive/impedance loading depending on the phono stage. Tang said his Ayon phono was loaded at 300 ohms, not 300pf. He also tried adjusting loading on his EMT - again - nothing to do with capacitance loading.

Anyway, you have now said the RS liked to be loaded open at 1k or 47k - instead of lower.

What impedance does the RS prefer when using a SUT?


cheers
Dear XV and all,

Maybe I had too little info of this cart because the mfg don’t say sh_t on the packaging. Like Shane, I was at the impression that this is a low output mc cart and no need to use in the mm input of phono. So now we are all clear that to make this RS really sings we need to use this $15,000 cart (in US really? :cool:) in the mm input and a step up which we will have more debate whether my step up is a good match or not. Until now I haven’t said once that this cart is beaten by my other carts. I have not yet find a cart that fit all my preferences. What I have said about this carts were it’s strengths and some sound attributes that I found not as high as the other two carts in comparison. Joshua just got so jumpy about it and react in such a way that only get him into quick sand imo.

It is just one man’s opinion but happens to be a little different from all who have been saying. I have never gone ape at anyone who is in love with any product. It’s their hearing not mine. Why would I even argue with that. On another thread, I said I like the silver gold Kuro cable and someone without hearing it in his system already said it is colored. I really didn’t give a damn and get all defensive because I hear what I hear. People are entitled to their own opinion.

And 853guy. You don’t need to rap to me about who has skin-in-the-game and who is not. Audiocrack once said that I am one of the “diplomatic” commenters. I don’t mean no harm to people who sell audio for living. In fact I view myself as one of the supporters of this industry because I am the buyer. You people who sell audio products should appreciate people like me and so many others in this forum. Quite a few people in this forum know very well I chose carefully what info I should release and what not in public just because I don’t want to be in the way of their business. Read my past comments and try to find one that I be so absolute to say product a beats product b, or product b knock out product c.

Later on I can put the RS into my EMT mm input and use the Airtight step up. I can play with different setting as Joshua recommended and see what happens. Shane, Peter you gonna have to pm me later if you want to know. I am the person with no skin-in-the-game and this is my way of pulling someone with skin-in-the-game out of quick sand.


Be wise. Use your wisdom.
Tang
 

gian60

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2016
1,279
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Tang in the last months is doing very special report,impartial,with a lot of perfect details,of all his cart and tonearm writing better than a reporter and all in this forum congrats him for his perfect report.

Now seems Tang understand nothing in hifi because don't tell RS is the best cart in the world.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
6,423
71
48
E. England
Hey Tang, if it means anything you’ve always struck me as someone who’s pretty humble, good natured, genuinely curious and uber enthusiastic.
Normally I would not have much of a feel for someone with so many analog rigs (envy? skepticism?), but you’re an exception.
Your wholly positive mindset shines thru your words, so you really have nothing to be apologetic about.
I think I speak for many here, please don’t be put off posting your thoughts publicly. However it seems you are, and I fully understand.
 

Tango

VIP/Donor
Mar 12, 2017
1,947
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Bangkok
Just to question and step on my incompetency in arm cart setup a little bit more :D. I don’t install carts on tonearms by myself. If ones want to point finger at this fact, it is totally ok by me. I am no pretender. I do have a competent tone arm guy working for me. Of course I also have fingers to adjust the knobs on my EMT phono :p. This I can do on my own. My tone arm guy has small experience. He does all arm cart setup for most big systems in Thailand. These include for example all three Techdas models, AS Invictus, Kronos, Kondo Ginga, EMT 927, various Kuzma, various TW Acoustics, Brink Mann Balance, Triangle art Ref, Theles, AMG, various Technics, etc. For tone arms, all Graham, all Telos, SAT, various SME, Thales Simplicity, Axiom, various Kuzma, various Acoustic Signatures, all Brinkmann, etc. For carts, so many and almost all the expensive ones. Three biggest audio dealers here including Boonyarat use him to setup tt, arms, carts for their customers. All tts in the system shown in monoandstereo stereo from Thailand he did all setups.

Kind regards,
Tang
 

gian60

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2016
1,279
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48
Other thing,
i have phono CH P1 with X1,so i can match in perfect way all the cartridges.
I have same cart of Tang,Atlas sl,Opus 1,GFS,Coralstone,and what he describes in his system are the same things i listen in my system,so i think Tang load the cart in perfect way
 

Tango

VIP/Donor
Mar 12, 2017
1,947
148
63
Bangkok
Hey Tang, if it means anything you’ve always struck me as someone who’s pretty humble, good natured, genuinely curious and uber enthusiastic.
Normally I would not have much of a feel for someone with so many analog rigs (envy? skepticism?), but you’re an exception.
Your wholly positive mindset shines thru your words, so you really have nothing to be apologetic about.
I think I speak for many here, please don’t be put off posting your thoughts publicly. However it seems you are, and I fully understand.
Hi Marc,

Thank you for liking me. I wish you were Keira Knightly.
I gues you like the poster I posted earlier in the day.

Tang:cool:
 

853guy

Active Member
Aug 14, 2013
1,161
0
36
Tango said:
And 853guy. You don’t need to rap to me about who has skin-in-the-game and who is not. Audiocrack once said that I am one of the “diplomatic” commenters. I don’t mean no harm to people who sell audio for living. In fact I view myself as one of the supporters of this industry because I am the buyer… Quite a few people in this forum know very well I chose carefully what info I should release and what not in public just because I don’t want to be in the way of their business. Read my past comments and try to find one that I be so absolute to say product a beats product b, or product b knock out product c.

Hello Tango,

Pleasure to make your acquaintance.

My comments were directed at spiritofmusic’s posts, and his posts specifically, which is why it was his posts I quoted in my replies. Up until post #177, I had made no mention of you, and only did so because PeterA asked whether there was a closeted inference I believed you were spreading disinformation, which I believe I clarified definitively with my response to him in that same post.

I do not know, and do not pretend to know anything about you other than what you write on this forum. Therefore I cannot know what you choose to disclose and what you do not, nor your reasons for doing so, and have no interest in trying to guess. I believe I referenced this in my reply to PeterA when I said:

853guy said:
“As to Tango's and Joshua's intentions... I would never dare speculate, and especially so for two gentlemen who I've never met.”
As I believe my posts in this thread are testament to, taking sides in forum disputes is of no interest to me, and idly guessing about the motivations of individuals I do not know is a waste of my time. I have no reason to doubt the veracity of your comments - as I just posted to spiritofmusic in post #180, I consider all opinions worth holding lightly, and I attempt to evaluate them on a case-by-case basis relative to the content of the post, not the personality of the poster.

Nevertheless, I stand by my skin-in-the-game comments. To repeat what I said for the sake of clarity, skin-in-the-game is always relevant apropos accusations of misinformation - but that was neither a veiled accusation toward you, nor toward Joshua. When I said in post #172:

853guy said:
My point is and remains that we would perhaps do well to discuss any reports of “fake news” in the context of harm rather than vested interests. In the specific case mentioned above, the small, boutique manufacturer was far more vulnerable to potential downside from misleading comments made on an online forum than the poster who made them.
...please note, the line “…the specific case mentioned above… ” is a direct reference and response to spiritofmusic’s comments re: the propagation of fake news and a recent apology he made to a manufacturer who is not the topic of this thread, i.e., NOT you and Top Wing.

Again, that is not to justify Joshua’s responses to you, as I believe I made clear when I said further:

853guy said:
I may not share nor endorse all of Joshua’s posts, and I’m certainly not defending him (nor do I believe I need do so), but skin-in-the-game is always relevant apropos accusations of misinformation.
Note, I specifically said “relevant apropos accusations of misinformation” prefaced by numerous questions that suggested irrespective of whether one is a dealer/distributor/manufacturer or an anonymous punter/blogger, we are all ultimately responsible for ensuring we are not party to the propagation of disinformation, and much more importantly, especially in cases in which it has real potential for harm (see footnote (1) at the bottom of post #172). This is of course especially true for those that have more to lose than those who have less to lose. That was the context for my skin-in-the-game comments - no more or less than that.

As to absolutist comments and “product a beats product b, or product b knock out product c” I believe the bolded part below adequately deals with my own personal preferences apropos subjective cartridge evaluations:

853guy said:
Does that invalidate Tango's subjective impressions? No, but on the other hand neither does it justify Joshua's responses. Both Tango and Joshua seem confident in their respective perspectives. It just means we are currently devoid of some information allowing us to better contextualise their comments - i.e., specific, repeatable, directly-comparable set-up variables which as with all things analogue often have large scale impacts on how one perceives performance.
I hope that clarifies things somewhat.


Tango said:
You people who sell audio products should appreciate people like me and so many others in this forum.

This will be my last post in this thread. But allow me to say I do not sell hi-fi in either capacity as a dealer or distributor, online or via brick and mortar, am not a manufacturer or designer, do not work for a print magazine or online blog as a hi-fi reviewer, and have no plans to do so. I derive zero income from the hi-fi industry. Like you, my income is derived from pursuits completely unrelated to the hi-fi industry, though also like you, it has received a generous portion of it, and will so again in the near future. Whether I’m appreciated or not is of no interest to me, I just buy what I like.

Best,

853guy
 
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spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
6,423
71
48
E. England
Tang, someone wanting me to be Keira Knightley is probably best kept to a PM .
I do admire your taste.
Now if you were Gillian Anderson, we’d be really talking .
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
6,423
71
48
E. England
853, as we say in Blighty, we’re getting “our knickers in a twist”.
Tang has been absolutely even handed in how he goes about things, and you’re a very considered, diplomatic fellow.
That sounds like a good mix.
 
Nov 19, 2015
1,043
1
38
Hutto TX
ibelieveinhifi.com
Dear XV and all,

Joshua just got so jumpy about it and react in such a way that only get him into quick sand imo.
Not sure how I got jumpy or why I am in quick sand? Here is my exact response to your evaluation of the RS.

Interesting findings Tang. I am also curious to know which impedance setting you are currently using as well. The Top Wing products are a hybrid MM/MC design and unlike some of the very low output impedance carts are actually very sensitive to impedance settings as well as VTA. We use AnalogMajik LP and software to dial it in to precise settings. A lot of preconceptions in setup that degrade the sound you can read here on VTA/SRA

Audiophile Bill's summary I find to be much more on point and while I know not any single cart is going to be everything to everyone, I do know there are some points missing in my experience.

All things being equal as well, the Top Wing Designs leaning more to MM allow for stylus replacement at 1/10th of the cost of what you pay for any other brands. A lifetime cart.
So when you posted that the normal impedance setting is 300 ohms on the spheris from all your carts and you didn't know which setting it was at.

Here I was thinking that you were giving a comprehensive review of the RS....disappointing.
So from this one comment, which I again stand by 100%, I am the *******. You obviously have a solid following with friends and fans alike so naturally they want to stand up for you. I don't know Boonyarat, you personally or your experience in this world so if you felt I was talking down or beneath you I can apologize for that and I do. PeterA pointed out that I should have best served asking my question offline through PM, but many asked for this answer and never received it and it does make a big difference in what this cart sounds like so I asked publicly.

Nothing more nothing less. My silly rabbit comment tried to add some light comedy to the situation to diffuse it, but didn't seem to serve me at all.
 
Last edited:
Nov 19, 2015
1,043
1
38
Hutto TX
ibelieveinhifi.com
Tang in the last months is doing very special report,impartial,with a lot of perfect details,of all his cart and tonearm writing better than a reporter and all in this forum congrats him for his perfect report.

Now seems Tang understand nothing in hifi because don't tell RS is the best cart in the world.
This is nonsense. I never claimed it was best in the world and just shared my experience for the betterment and/or entertainment of others. Because I am a distributor with financial interest in Top Wing is about the only criticism to my enthusiasm that would be relevant to my responses. Others jumped on board and ordered.

As far as a "perfect report", one of the most crucial contributions to the a report on the RS is the impedance not being what works best for MC. The low output is suggestive it is a MC design, but it is not.

Other thing,
i have phono CH P1 with X1,so i can match in perfect way all the cartridges.
I have same cart of Tang,Atlas sl,Opus 1,GFS,Coralstone,and what he describes in his system are the same things i listen in my system,so i think Tang load the cart in perfect way
This is also a comment that is nonsensical if you have followed my inquiry.

Lrya Atlas - 1.52 ohms MC
Air Tight Opus - 1.4 ohms MC
Koetsu CS - 5ohms MC

Red Sparrow - 12.3 ohms MM with MC Hybrid

All of what you mentioned are MC and have very little sensitivity (if any) to higher impedance. So yes they are going to sound the same in your system and have no bearing to validating Tang's loading of the RS. The RS which likes higher impedance and was never mentioned what it ended up sounding best at to him.

Even if I am only speaking to myself at this point I do want to leave this important point here for those outside of WBF that may find this useful to know. As Tang stated there is no information from the mfg on the packaging after all.
 
Last edited:
Nov 19, 2015
1,043
1
38
Hutto TX
ibelieveinhifi.com

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