SAT CF1 and CF1 Ti

[TLi]

SAT CF1 series tonearms which consists of 9 and 12 inches was launched in 2018. It was an improved version of the original SAT introduced in 2016.

In 2019, SAT designer, Marc Gomez, launched his turntable XD1, it came with an upgraded CF1 tonearm named CF1 Ti. Initially CF1 Ti could only be purchased with the turntable and was not available separately. There was very little information about the difference between the standard version and the Ti (titanium) version. The only thing we know is there is a titanium tube inside the carbon fibre wand.

Now we can buy CF1 Ti separately. Although it is 50% more expensive than the standard version, I was told that there were quite a few buyers. Last week I had the opportunity to do a direct shootout between CF1 9inches and CF1 Ti 9inches. Both tonearms have Lyra Altas Lambda SL mounted, and the shootout was done on TechDAS Air Force One Premium turntable. Swapping the two tonearms were quick and easy due to the design of SAT armboard. The arm is secured with one screw. The difference between two arms was well demonstrated.

Before testing, I expected the titanium version would sound brighter as it is the sonic characteristic of the metal. On the contrary, CF1 Ti is a lot warmer and smoother than CF1. The resolution is even higher than CF1. CF1 already has one of the highest resolution in all the tonearms I have heard. There is some dark magic that Marc Gomez has done on CF1 Ti to make it sounds so different. The external appearances of both arms are identical. But weight distribution of the wand is not the same. We know that because the position of counterweight is not the same when tracking forces are the same. The photo shows the difference in counterweight.

My verdict is CF1 Ti is a better tonearm than CF1 by some margin.

 

[mtemur]

- Thank you for sharing you experience.
- IME titanium always sound warm, smooth, never bright.
- You should try Techdas titanium cartridge screws if you haven't already. I tested on a couple of tonearms with very good results but couldn't get a chance to test it on SAT CF1-09 against regular screws supplied by SAT. They sound ok BTW.
- It is impossible for me to say which is titanium version by looking at the picture. Additionally the tonearm that counterweight is closer to pivot has additional locking nut and VTF screw. Could this be the reason?

- SAT CF1-09 sounds ok but has some design flaws.

 

[Argonaut]

Certainly looks Substantial

 

[TLi]

The arm on top is Ti version, below is standard CF1.
Although both have the same cartridge and headshell, there is no need to use the extra weight at the end for Ti version. In the standard version, extra weight has to be added at the end to get the required tracking force.
TechDAS titanium screws are 2.6mm. They can’t go through SAT headshell. I tried. It only accepts 2.5mm screws.
I agree Ti is not bright, it should sound dynamic. But it is certainly not warm. The mid high tends to be boosted by Ti, giving a more lively feel.

 

[mtemur]

Although both have the same cartridge and headshell, there is no need to use the extra weight at the end for Ti version. In the standard version, extra weight has to be added at the end to get the required tracking force.

That's why (when extra weight is not used) counterweight is farther back. If you had used extra weight (locking nut and VTF screw) on Ti version counterweight would be closer to pivot just like regular CF1-09. Not the other way.

They should be compared in identical counterweight combination to reach a conclusion. I setup CF1-09 before and setting VTF should be as follows:

- Counterweight, locking nut and VTF screw should be installed just like the picture below.



- Smallest locking nut should be used and VTF screw should be in halfway.
- Desired VTF should be set by moving counterweight



- When it's close to desired VTF counterweight should be fixed by screw underneath.
- Fine tuning of VTF should be done by VTF screw and finally
- Locking nut should be tightened to fix VTF screw.


After doing all these steps for both tonearms you can be sure if there is a difference between regular and Ti version counterweight locations. If there is any difference it can be due to using titanium headshell with regular CF1-09 instead of regular headshell and/or Ti version's effective mass.

 

[TLi]

That's why (when extra weight is not used) counterweight is farther back. If you had used extra weight (locking nut and VTF screw) on Ti version counterweight would be closer to pivot just like regular CF1-09. Not the other way.

They should be compared in identical counterweight combination to reach a conclusion. I setup CF1-09 before and setting VTF should be as follows:

I use original SAT tonearm since 2017 and recently upgraded to CF1 Ti. During that period, I tried many different ways of attaching the counterweights. If possible, I prefer not to use the small extra weight at the end. When a single main weight is enough to counterbalance the arm, when add extra weight at the end? It seems to be a meaningless additional mass to the wand system that put unnecessary stress on the bearing and increase the moment of inertia. Yes, it is a lot more tedious to adjust the tracking force, small adjustment is difficult. It takes a lot more attempts moving the main weight back and forth in very small increments to get to desired tracking force, but once you get it, you don't change it often. So for a few more minutes of work, I think I get better sound.

Another reason I prefer to use a single main weight is the fact that it is clamped to the metal end cap, instead of clamping in the middle of carbon fibre wand. The metal cap is an insert that is glued to the end forming a better integration with the wand. When the weight is clamped to the cap, it forms a better bond. The middle of the wand is more flexible.

I also tried to use different metals to make the counterweight, tried titanium and tungsten. I find a single piece of tungsten attached to the end cap gives the best sound. I shall try to do so again later with CF1 Ti.

As for the CF1 vs CF1 Ti, CF1 cannot get to 1.8g tracking force for Lyra Altas without adding the extra small weights. Even if the main weight slided all the way to the end, tracking force is around 4g, there is no choice but to put the extra weights back. That is why I said the weight distribution is different between CF1 and CF1 Ti. For CF1 Ti, just a single weight is enough.

 

[mtemur]

That is why I said the weight distribution is different between CF1 and CF1 Ti. For CF1 Ti, just a single weight is enough.

Thank you for sharing detailed experiences.

Now we can assume that Ti version has a lower effective mass. I don’t think there is any difference in G point but using lighter materials inside the tube made armwand lighter.
Using only one weight look identical and the way to go but there can be unwanted vibrations. Top arms like SAT are designed and tested for resonances in complete form, I mean with locking nut and VTF screw. Taking (locking nut and VTF screw) them out may cause unwanted resonances. Additionally leaving a hole on the back of armtube (not using VTF screw) is not a good idea. It will definitely cause some vibrations inside the armtube. Moreover as a rule of thumb counterweights should be arranged closer to pivot IOT get a more dynamic, precise and better sound, not farther away. Using locking nut and VTF screw will also help counterweight to get closer to pivot. IMHO those are (locking nut and VTF screw) parts of the arm not accessories like silicon pool on some arms that can be taken out. I wouldn’t use it without them.

IMHO original SAT arm that I saw in your last post is a better design. At least it has offset on it’s horizontal bearings.

P.S. what is the fifth cartridge clip attached to headshell? Is it for grounding?

 

[TLi]

Thank you for sharing detailed experiences.

Now we can assume that Ti version has a lower effective mass. I don’t think there is any difference in G point but using lighter materials inside the tube made armwand lighter.
Using only one weight look identical and the way to go but there can be unwanted vibrations. Top arms like SAT are designed and tested for resonances in complete form, I mean with locking nut and VTF screw. Taking (locking nut and VTF screw) them out may cause unwanted resonances. Additionally leaving a hole on the back of armtube (not using VTF screw) is not a good idea. It will definitely cause some vibrations inside the armtube. Moreover as a rule of thumb counterweights should be arranged closer to pivot IOT get a more dynamic, precise and better sound, not farther away. Using locking nut and VTF screw will also help counterweight to get closer to pivot. Those are (locking nut and VTF screw) parts of the arm not accessories like silicon pool on some arms that can be taken out. I wouldn’t use it without them.

IMHO original SAT arm that I saw in your last post is a better design at least it has offset on it’s horizontal bearings.

P.S. what is the fifth cartridge clip attached to headshell? Is it for grounding?

The fifth wire is the grounding wire.

There is offset in the original SAT and no offset in CF1 and LM series. The problem with offset is when you drop the needle, it moves towards inward. One has to allow for it, otherwise the needle is not drop to the right place. No such problem with the new arm.

 

[mtemur]

The fifth wire is the grounding wire.

There is offset in the original SAT and no offset in CF1 and LM series. The problem with offset is when you drop the needle, it moves towards inward. One has to allow for it, otherwise the needle is not drop to the right place. No such problem with the new arm.

There is nothing wrong with offset on horizontal bearings (horizontally located). That’s how it should be otherwise many problems occur. On a well designed, well setup tonearm, stylus doesn’t move towards inside when lowering the lift. On the contrary it slightly moves to outside due to anti-skating. On the other hand a couple of problems are introduced with no offset. The only advantage is easy manufacturing.

 

[JEB42]

SAT CF1 series tonearms which consists of 9 and 12 inches was launched in 2018. It was an improved version of the original SAT introduced in 2016.

In 2019, SAT designer, Marc Gomez, launched his turntable XD1, it came with an upgraded CF1 tonearm named CF1 Ti. Initially CF1 Ti could only be purchased with the turntable and was not available separately. There was very little information about the difference between the standard version and the Ti (titanium) version. The only thing we know is there is a titanium tube inside the carbon fibre wand.

Now we can buy CF1 Ti separately. Although it is 50% more expensive than the standard version, I was told that there were quite a few buyers. Last week I had the opportunity to do a direct shootout between CF1 9inches and CF1 Ti 9inches. Both tonearms have Lyra Altas Lambda SL mounted, and the shootout was done on TechDAS Air Force One Premium turntable. Swapping the two tonearms were quick and easy due to the design of SAT armboard. The arm is secured with one screw. The difference between two arms was well demonstrated.

Before testing, I expected the titanium version would sound brighter as it is the sonic characteristic of the metal. On the contrary, CF1 Ti is a lot warmer and smoother than CF1. The resolution is even higher than CF1. CF1 already has one of the highest resolution in all the tonearms I have heard. There is some dark magic that Marc Gomez has done on CF1 Ti to make it sounds so different. The external appearances of both arms are identical. But weight distribution of the wand is not the same. We know that because the position of counterweight is not the same when tracking forces are the same. The photo shows the difference in counterweight.

My verdict is CF1 Ti is a better tonearm than CF1 by some margin.
View attachment 113581 View attachment 113582

I can add that there are other improvements in the Ti arm beyond the armband Titanium insert. The headshell surround is also Titanium. You can certainly feel the difference when snugging the headshell hex-head down. It takes more force to close it. Also a little more care when setting Azimuth to not move the headshell.

There is also the new grounding structure that has been introduced. It is no longer run with the pick arm leads but comes off the separate bin at the base of the arm. The headshells are now directly grounded with a separate pin wire. Very effective in lower the noise floor.

The yokes are made of stainless steel. The headshell metal frame is titanium as is the tube were it is clamped to the arm.

Other differences: the bearings are stiffer, the internal mass distribution is different and the arm is heavier. Both the 9" and the 12" titanium arms use the big main counterweight that is otherwise used with all the other 12" models.

Of course they you have the sound/performance, a very welcome set up from the CF1-09.

In the primary position is the CF1-09Ti with Lyra Atlas (standard output). In the back position is the LM-12 with Lyra Etna SL. It gives a great contrast between the arms showing and illustrating just how great an arm the SAT LM-12 is but the capability of the information retrieval of the CF1-09Ti in comparison.

 

[TLi]

You can buy headshell of CF1 Ti separately. It is around US$2,600 in Hong Kong. It can be mounted on any LM series and CF1 arms.

LM series is very good, just CF1 series, particularly Ti version is obviously better.

 

[JEB42]

You can buy headshell of CF1 Ti separately. It is around US$2,600 in Hong Kong. It can be mounted on any LM series and CF1 arms.

LM series is very good, just CF1 series, particularly Ti version is obviously better.

I believe you will find that the pricing set by SAT on the headshell is for the LM not the Ti. The LM list price is $2,600 USD. The CF1 is higher at $3,800 USD. The Ti is actually higher again. It is not on the standard price list your dealer will have. I just delivered a second one to a client. It is significantly higher. The CF1Ti headshell alone is $4,900 USD. I am not sure that SAT will sell the head-shells for mounting on LM or CF1 arms. I believe they reserve the sale of the headshells only to CF1Ti pickup arm owners. That is why it is not shown on the price list.

Also just to mention, if you do order additional headshells, 9" will ship as standard. If you do have a 12" arm, ensure you order the 12" headshell. They are geometrically differently as the arc curves are different for set ups. While they will physically fit the arm they are unique to the arm length. They are not interchangeable in the set up jig for your cartridge. Pricing is the same for both 9" and 12" versions of the head-shells.

 

[mtemur]

If you do have a 12" arm, ensure you order the 12" headshell. They are geometrically differently as the arc curves are different for set ups.

Offset angle is different between 9" and 12" arms. Zenith (Yaw) won't be correct with wrong headshell.

 

[bonzo75]

At Steve Dobbins place compared SAT to Schroeder LT with atlas lambda. Both are equal, but cost of LT is 12.5k USD.

SAT even a bit more detail, LT a bit more flow. I am trying to understand the LT more. I wouldn’t change if one has SAT but if you are in the market worth auditioning both by visiting.

Also preferred the Lambda to Lambda SL.

 

[TLi]

The CF1 and LM series are a big jump in performance over the original SAT. Resolution is a lot higher in CF1 series.

I have not A/B compared Lyra Altas Lambda vs Lambda SL. I have a Lambda SL and enjoy using it very much.The matching of gain with phonostage and/or stepup transformer are vital here.It is difficult to draw a line to say which one is better. It depends on the system.

 

[bonzo75]

The CF1 and LM series are a big jump in performance over the original SAT. Resolution is a lot higher in CF1 series.

I have not A/B compared Lyra Altas Lambda vs Lambda SL. I have a Lambda SL and enjoy using it very much.The matching of gain with phonostage and/or stepup transformer are vital here.It is difficult to draw a line to say which one is better. It depends on the system.

the one we heard was in CH stack. I had the same conclusion with Etna SL to Etna before

 

[JEB42]

I believe you will find that the pricing set by SAT on the headshell is for the LM not the Ti. The LM list price is $2,600 USD. The CF1 is higher at $3,800 USD. The Ti is actually higher again. It is not on the standard price list your dealer will have. I just delivered a second one to a client. It is significantly higher. The CF1Ti headshell alone is $4,900 USD. I am not sure that SAT will sell the head-shells for mounting on LM or CF1 arms. I believe they reserve the sale of the headshells only to CF1Ti pickup arm owners. That is why it is not shown on the price list.

Also just to mention, if you do order additional headshells, 9" will ship as standard. If you do have a 12" arm, ensure you order the 12" headshell. They are geometrically differently as the arc curves are different for set ups. While they will physically fit the arm they are unique to the arm length. They are not interchangeable in the set up jig for your cartridge. Pricing is the same for both 9" and 12" versions of the head-shells.

Just a bit further. I did confirm that the Ti headshell is very limited production. Spare headshells are only made available to CF1-09 or 12 Ti owners.