Can a Technics SL-1200G challenge the state of the art?

[jeff1225]

Hiraga brought back 300b in the 80s, and it is the most popular SET amp. No need to give credit to Devon.

You always need the last word, but since you’re so wrong, I have to correct you. Hiraga brought back 300b 45 years ago. Devon’s marketing target was born 20 years later.

 

[bonzo75]

You always need the last word, but since you’re so wrong, I have to correct you. Hiraga brought back 300b 45 years ago. Devon’s marketing target was born 20 years later.

And 300b was dead in between till Devon brought it back? lol.

crediting Devon for it is like crediting a 100k Dac for bringing back digital

 

[jeff1225]

And 300b was dead in between till Devon brought it back? lol.

crediting Devon for it is like crediting a 100k Dac for bringing back digital

You have all the jelly you need for your toast.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

however much one dislikes Devons sound demos, he´s reaching an audience the highend community could well need : young people......
I´ve known him since ETF in 20 and he´s straight as an arrow and doesn´t hide behind an agenda, like very many clueless hiend pushers do.....

 

[bonzo75]

however much one dislikes Devons sound demos, he´s reaching an audience the highend community could well need : young people......

I am purely referring to his sound - I don't see how this is any different from the foo fi that sounds bad. Just because it is Altec and 300b instead of Raidho and dCS is making some people over romantic. He is not selling it at 100 USD. Headphones are a better way to reach young people

 

[jeromelang]

What has stopped me buying the 1200G are:

(1) No local distributor in Singapore

(2) Too many metallic parts - platter and plinth

Are there any differences between the motor of the 1200G and the normal 1200?

What is/are the weak point(s) of the 1200G tonearm?

 

[struts]

What has stopped me buying the 1200G are:

(1) No local distributor in Singapore

I find it hard to believe but quite possibly true. Hin Huat (more DJ-oriented assortment) stocks the Mk 7, maybe they would take in a G on special order?

(2) Too many metallic parts - platter and plinth

What's the problem with metal? In the case of the SL-1200G the metal parts are well damped by intelligent combination with other materials (e.g. rubber and BMC). See my post above. One of the world's most expensive turntables, the Oswalds Mill K3, is built almost exclusively of metals (as are countless others). Metals are excellent materials in many respects, the key to their use in turntables is damping their ringing properties which I think Technics has done very effectively in the SL-1200.

Are there any differences between the motor of the 1200G and the normal 1200?

Yes, big differences:

What is/are the weak point(s) of the 1200G tonearm?

Good question. When Paul Miller measured the arm for HFN/RR (sadly not available online) he found a significant resonant mode at 300 Hz. Unclear what this was caused by (maybe the head shell bayonet fixing which seems anything but robust) and why Technics didn't do a better job of damping it. However I regard the arm as competent but "mid-fi" and not doing the excellent drive unit justice. I will definitely be swapping the arm on mine just to see how far the drive unit can be taken.

 

[krugdoktor]

I find it hard to believe but quite possibly true. Hin Huat (more DJ-oriented assortment) stocks the Mk 7, maybe they would take in a G on special order?

What's the problem with metal? In the case of the SL-1200G the metal parts are well damped by intelligent combination with other materials (e.g. rubber and BMC). See my post above. One of the world's most expensive turntables, the Oswalds Mill K3, is built almost exclusively of metals (as are countless others). Metals are excellent materials in many respects, the key to their use in turntables is damping their ringing properties which I think Technics has done very effectively in the SL-1200.

Yes, big differences: View attachment 127042

Good question. When Paul Miller measured the arm for HFN/RR (sadly not available online) he found a significant resonant mode at 300 Hz. Unclear what this was caused by (maybe the head shell bayonet fixing which seems anything but robust) and why Technics didn't do a better job of damping it. However I regard the arm as competent but "mid-fi" and not doing the excellent drive unit justice. I will definitely be swapping the arm on mine just to see how far the drive unit can be taken.

Been there done it. And yes it was a lot better than the standard tonearm, BUT the upgrade to an SL-1000r changed things considerably!
The SL-1000r is massively better than the 1200G (even with the Technics tonearm of the SL-1000r).
IMHO the 1200G was only slightly ahead of my old trusty 1210 MkII

 

[dionisofun]

After installing a Glanz MH94S on my Technics 1200G I couldn't be happier. Pure nirvana.
I also have an SP10 MK2 that works with a Schroeder CB tonearm, but it's difficult, if not impossible, to say which is better since the sounds are very different - with the SP10/CB playing more open and with a little more dynamics.

In face of such differences, who plays a more important role ? The tonearm or the turntable? Have no idea.

 

[krugdoktor]

After installing a Glanz MH94S on my Technics 1200G I couldn't be happier. Pure nirvana.
I also have an SP10 MK2 that works with a Schroeder CB tonearm, but it's difficult, if not impossible, to say which is better since the sounds are very different - with the SP10/CB playing more open and with a little more dynamics.

In face of such differences, who plays a more important role ? The tonearm or the turntable? Have no idea.

As you can see from the above I‘ve done exactly this, but in my opinion the turntable plays a greater role!

 

[struts]

Been there done it. And yes it was a lot better than the standard tonearm, BUT the upgrade to an SL-1000r changed things considerably! View attachment 127047 View attachment 127057
The SL-1000r is massively better than the 1200G (even with the Technics tonearm of the SL-1000r).
IMHO the 1200G was only slightly ahead of my old trusty 1210 MkII

Thanks for the input @krugdoktor . It doesn't surprise me at all. Here at least the SL-1000R is six times the price of the SL-1200G.

But it is still interesting to hear your views as most posts I have found only compared with older 1200 models. Is that the same MH-94S and SPU you mounted on both? How would you characterise the differences?

 

[krugdoktor]

Thanks for the input @krugdoktor . It doesn't surprise me at all. Here at least the SL-1000R is six times the price of the SL-1200G.

But it is still interesting to hear your views as most posts I have found only compared with older 1200 models. Is that the same MH-94S and SPU you mounted on both? How would you characterise the differences?

The Glanz was the same MH-94s on both turntables, the SPU is one of my collection of 7 SPUs, but the differences were comstant. Just more of everything, especially more musical involvement.
After all the 1200G is a mighty fine turntable and with the Glanz tonearm (and an SPU) even better, but if you want to really hear what the Glanz is capable of there is no way past the 1000r. The magnitude of difference even surprised me.
Btw: price ratio is 4,7 between these two.

 

[Dierkx1]

For the last 15-or-so years I have been the proud owner of a Nordic Concept Artist (here sporting a Breuer 8c and Dynavector XV-1s).

View attachment 125213

























This beautiful and great sounding deck (sadly no longer in production) was the brainchild of Robert Grubstad, proprietor of AudioConcept, one of the leading high-end dealers in the Nordic region. He designed and built it from the ground up and it incorporated some innovative ideas (for instance the mass-matched mechanical grounding) as well as good old-fashioned top-notch audio engineering. However over time the evolution of my digital source led to me playing less and less vinyl. As more and more of my listening went over to streaming I started to realise how few of my own discs (mostly contemporary rock/indie starting from the late 1970s) were unavailable in streamed form. Ignoring my singles it is currently less than about 50. And when I upgraded to a Vivaldi stack I started finding that in head-to-head comparisons I actually though the digital version sounded better . The Artist was good, but comparing it to current SoTA digital, I was for the first time starting to clearly hear its limitations.

The optimisation of my digital system eventually led to my ditching my preamp and driving my power amp directly from the DAC and this put my vinyl listening on hold for a few years. As the beautiful Artist was just sitting gathering dust I decided it was time to let it go so it could make someone else happy. However during a visit to a local dealer I started talking to my friend G who has worked there forever and at other dealers before that. He is a true veteran of the high end and someone whose opinion I respect enormously. He showed me a picture of his own current system and I saw a turntable that I thought I recognised. "What's that?" I asked. "A Technics SL-1200G" he said, "it's really good!" He didn't need to say more, I changed than plan and the sale became a trade-in. Very soon a new SL-1200G was spinning chez Struts, jury rigged with a Parks Audio Waxwing into the Vivaldi Upsampler while I figured out which direction to take on the preamp question.

View attachment 125216

I started reading up on the SL-1200G and appreciating that this was indeed no ordinary high-end turntable. Above all the massive R&D resources of Technics (now owned by Panasonic) and the advanced tooling they were able to invest in for production contrasted what looked like the classic DJ deck from the vast majority of boutique audiophile designs. How many of those for instance could boast optical speed control technology that had originally been developed for Blu-ray players, or a specialized high precision machine specifically to test and calibrate platter balance? But on a subsequent visit to my dealer G told me a story that really got my ears twitching. He told me how he had compared his SL-1200G with a friend’s TechDAS 3. As you know, this is a serious audiophile deck costing in the region of $40k. Well, he said when they measured them up his Technics out-performed the TechDAS on every parameter: speed accuracy, short-term speed stability, long-term speed stability etc. He said his friend went away with his tail between his legs and came back a week later having used various test discs to “dial it in”. At this point he said it was now pretty much on a par with the Technics. This fascinated me, and what had started as an envisaged retirement from vinyl ended with me tumbling down a new rabbit hole.

Could the humble SL-1200G be used as the platform for an “assault on the summit”? A true SoTA deck that can go toe-to-toe with the best available? This idea was fuelled by the joy of having one in-house and being able to play my records again which had led to a major vinyl renaissance!

I started researching and soon realised that as far as the original "deejay" SL-1200s go this was a well trodden path. I found a wealth of information (some examples) on power-supply upgrades, bearing upgrades, sub-chassis tweaks and replacement footers, as well as platter-mat, -weight and arm-board and arm upgrades. About the only thing people never seemed to touch on the older SL-1200s was the motor - and that is significantly upgraded on the SL-1200G! As hard as I looked I could find very little information on people trying similar things with contemporary "audiophile" SL-1200Gs. So I thought “why not give it a try?”

So that is my new project. To identify tweaks and upgrades that will take my SL-1200G as close to the state of the art as I can.

And just to address one elephant in the room, yes, I know the SL-1000R is still available and out-performs the SL-1200G. It has an out-board power supply, a heavier platter and stronger motor, and maybe not insignificantly, can accommodate 10” arms. However, the only direct comparisons (such as this one) I have been able to find are of the decks in their stock configuration, including tonearms, raising the question how much the quality difference here (magnesium vs aluminium arm tubes etc.) may have been a deciding factor. And in that comparison even then a simple tonearm cable upgrade took the SL1200G to within striking distance of the SL-1000R. An outboard power supply and a better arm can be retrofitted, we’ll see how much of a limitation the 9” constraint turns out to be. Everything I have read convinced me that the SL-1200G is a good enough motor unit that my thesis is that I can actually evolve it to outperform the SL-1000R and at lower cost.

I have already spoken to Hugo at Ammonite, Dave at TimeStep and Arthur at TheFunkFirm so huge shout-outs to them for sharing their wisdom and experience. I also have a friend who is ex-Technics and who is introducing me to some former colleagues from Technics Product Management and R&D in Osaka. So I have started collecting various accessories and these are now winding their way towards the frozen north.

If anyone here is aware of people who have trodden this path before please let me know, I am really anxious to learn from the experience of others. Likewise if you have any ideas or suggestions of upgrades to try, or indeed if you think I'm mad, please drop me a line! @mtemur & @Johan K I see you have posted on relevant topics here previously and welcome your input.

Let’s see where we end up.

Let me know if want to sell the Breuer

 

[struts]

Let me know if want to sell the Breuer

I traded it in. But the dealer is selling it. Ping me if you are interested and I will put in a word for you.

 

[dionisofun]

Been there done it. And yes it was a lot better than the standard tonearm, BUT the upgrade to an SL-1000r changed things considerably! View attachment 127047 View attachment 127057
The SL-1000r is massively better than the 1200G (even with the Technics tonearm of the SL-1000r).
IMHO the 1200G was only slightly ahead of my old trusty 1210 MkII

Where did you get this tonearm base (for Glanz)?

 

[krugdoktor]

Where did you get this tonearm base (for Glanz)?

I ordered a Technics base which was prepared for the Glanz by the dealer (actually the work was done by Clearaudio).
Later I saw there would be a cheaper option by: https://www.acoustand.co.uk/collect...cement-tonearm-base-panel-for-technics-sp-10r

 

[dionisofun]

I ordered a Technics base which was prepared for the Glanz by the dealer (actually the work was done by Clearaudio).
Later I saw there would be a cheaper option by: https://www.acoustand.co.uk/collect...cement-tonearm-base-panel-for-technics-sp-10r

How much better is Glanz compared to the Technics tonearm?

 

[krugdoktor]

How do you compare the Glanz to the Technics tonearm? Does it beat Technics by a significant margin?

Yes!

 

[krugdoktor]

How much better is Glanz compared to the Technics tonearm?

Much better.
Joking aside; The Glanz has a highly effective inner damping, so heavy, low compliance cartridges like SPUs or EMTs that send a lot of vibrational energy into the arm are handled with ease. The Technics arm is „softer“.
But the Technics arm is a very fine tonearm and serves me very well with a lot of different cartridges, it just cannot reach the resolution of the Glanz.

 

[dionisofun]

Much better.
Joking aside; The Glanz has a highly effective inner damping, so heavy, low compliance cartridges like SPUs or EMTs that send a lot of vibrational energy into the arm are handled with ease. The Technics arm is „softer“.
But the Technics arm is a very fine tonearm and serves me very well with a lot of different cartridges, it just cannot reach the resolution of the Glanz.

I apologize, I made a mistake and asked the same question twice. Thank you!