Why CDs May Actually Sound Better Than Vinyl

[FrantzM]

I agree. Looking for identical sound is foolish. Looking for convincing sound, compared with the reference of unamplified live music, is a better approach. I will gladly concede that this is not without its own limitations and pitfalls.

And to me that is the crux of the matter. Most CD sound different from a similar analog piece. Assuming that they would come from the same reecroding but we can be almost certain that the processing, what makes the final products after all, will be different. Yet, for the most part I don't find the better CD lacking. Merely different and in the case of some pieces, I do find the CD better. Those of the fabled Mercury come to mind. IMHO , those CDs are better than their LP counterparts. I would really like to see people use the I prefer or IMO modifiers when talking about the overall superiority of LP over CD (or all form of digital).. I am dreaming.. IMO.

Truth to be told a ripped (to CD) LP sounds as identical as it can to the original. Very few people would be able to distinguish them with knowledge removed and that however long they want to try .. Of course once knowledge returns .. It would not be even be close

 

[JackD201]

And to me that is the crux of the matter. Most CD sound different from a similar analog piece. Assuming that they would come from the same reecroding but we can be almost certain that the processing, what makes the final products after all, will be different. Yet, for the most part I don't find the better CD lacking. Merely different and in the case of some pieces, I do find the CD better. Those of the fabled Mercury come to mind. IMHO , those CDs are better than their LP counterparts. I would really like to see people use the I prefer or IMO modifiers when talking about the overall superiority of LP over CD (or all form of digital).. I am dreaming.. IMO.

Truth to be told a ripped (to CD) LP sounds as identical as it can to the original. Very few people would be able to distinguish them with knowledge removed and that however long they want to try .. Of course once knowledge returns .. It would not be even be close

Personally I wouldn't even go as far as "overall" superiority. If we do that we need to include all the rack tables, wow n' fluttery mass market survivors and the new cheepos with poor and even unaligned carts along with everything that plays a silver disc. If we do this, my bet would be that hands down CD will win. Bottom line is that it is easier to get decent sound with a CD. It's only when the vinyl listener gets more involved by actually taking steps to do things right starting with record selection and record care and moving on to set up, and gain matching that things start to get interesting.

I'm a vinyl guy but I have seen to often people wax on about poor analog being better than CD in a head to head where the CD player really was so much better. I don't think there really is a definite truth here. It's all case to case. There are just too many variables. For those that have neither the energy or inclination to explore vinyl's potential, IMO RBCD is perfectly fine. I have seen many CD listeners, myself included that did go off exploring and did find the work rewarding in the end. It's all good.

 

[Yuri Korzunov]

And to me that is the crux of the matter. Most CD sound different from a similar analog piece. Assuming that they would come from the same reecroding but we can be almost certain that the processing, what makes the final products after all, will be different. Yet, for the most part I don't find the better CD lacking. Merely different and in the case of some pieces, I do find the CD better. Those of the fabled Mercury come to mind. IMHO , those CDs are better than their LP counterparts. I would really like to see people use the I prefer or IMO modifiers when talking about the overall superiority of LP over CD (or all form of digital).. I am dreaming.. IMO.

Truth to be told a ripped (to CD) LP sounds as identical as it can to the original. Very few people would be able to distinguish them with knowledge removed and that however long they want to try .. Of course once knowledge returns .. It would not be even be close

"Like to original" (or "similar analog piece") term has two dimension:

1. Copying of original oscillation. Digital systems currently make it almost perfect (comparing mechanical mediums).

2. Capturing wave field in concert hall/room. And re-create it during playback. It's unsolved issue now.

 

[bonzo75]

Personally I wouldn't even go as far as "overall" superiority. If we do that we need to include all the rack tables, wow n' fluttery mass market survivors and the new cheepos with poor and even unaligned carts along with everything that plays a silver disc. If we do this, my bet would be that hands down CD will win. Bottom line is that it is easier to get decent sound with a CD. It's only when the vinyl listener gets more involved by actually taking steps to do things right starting with record selection and record care and moving on to set up, and gain matching that things start to get interesting.

I'm a vinyl guy but I have seen to often people wax on about poor analog being better than CD in a head to head where the CD player really was so much better. I don't think there really is a definite truth here. It's all case to case. There are just too many variables. For those that have neither the energy or inclination to explore vinyl's potential, IMO RBCD is perfectly fine. I have seen many CD listeners, myself included that did go off exploring and did find the work rewarding in the end. It's all good.

That's the problem. It has to be well set up, else the vinyl won't make a difference, no matter how costly the gear. There are no shortcuts here. Can't keep buying in the used market and comparing gear easily unless one is an expert. It was so easy with digital and amps. Yet, the sound of well set up vinyl beckons - can't stay away anymore

 

[Al M.]

That's the problem. It has to be well set up, else the vinyl won't mashes a difference, no matter how costly the gear. There are no shortcuts here. Can't keep buying in the used market and comparing grass easily unless one is an expert. It was so easy with digital and amps.

Yes, even the modest action of raising or lowering the tonearm just a bit, perhaps even depending on a specific LP, can make a huge difference. Including on a superior and costly vinyl rig. Digital is mostly just plug and play.

 

[FrantzM]

Personally I wouldn't even go as far as "overall" superiority. If we do that we need to include all the rack tables, wow n' fluttery mass market survivors and the new cheepos with poor and even unaligned carts along with everything that plays a silver disc. If we do this, my bet would be that hands down CD will win. Bottom line is that it is easier to get decent sound with a CD. It's only when the vinyl listener gets more involved by actually taking steps to do things right starting with record selection and record care and moving on to set up, and gain matching that things start to get interesting.

I'm a vinyl guy but I have seen to often people wax on about poor analog being better than CD in a head to head where the CD player really was so much better. I don't think there really is a definite truth here. It's all case to case. There are just too many variables. For those that have neither the energy or inclination to explore vinyl's potential, IMO RBCD is perfectly fine. I have seen many CD listeners, myself included that did go off exploring and did find the work rewarding in the end. It's all good.

People like you make it impossible to have a foodfight ...



I went actually the other way. I was heavily into vinyl and it was well set-up and plenty good for the time (about 10 years ago !!) I started noticing that I was listening much more to the digital gear than the Vinyl .. And frankly I wasn't losing anything. It comes to an aesthetics approach IMHO. Some like the presentation of a good vinyl system and some don't.
I take exception however when some declare the Vinyl superior with an inference of absolute superiority from Vinyl which is not the case IME. To me the test is how close CD can copy vinyl and it is close to 100%... Close enough for cognoscenti to be fooled. Would anyone think that an analog chain can produce close to a perfect copy? Allow me to have my doubts.

 

[Al M.]

Would anyone think that an analog chain can produce close to a perfect copy? Allow me to have my doubts.

Allow me to have mine as well. In fact, if you go through what happens in the entire chain, from making to replaying vinyl, it is technically impossible.

 

[bonzo75]

People like you make it impossible to have a foodfight ...



I went actually the other way. I was heavily into vinyl and it was well set-up and plenty good for the time (about 10 years ago !!) I started noticing that I was listening much more to the digital gear than the Vinyl .. And frankly I wasn't losing anything. It comes to an aesthetics approach IMHO. Some like the presentation of a good vinyl system and some don't.
I take exception however when some declare the Vinyl superior with an inference of absolute superiority from Vinyl which is not the case IME. To me the test is how close CD can copy vinyl and it is close to 100%... Close enough for cognoscenti to be fooled. Would anyone think that an analog chain can produce close to a perfect copy? Allow me to have my doubts.

In a few years you might just be streaming mp3 of Spotify but that doesn't mean it sounds better

 

[Al M.]

In a few years you might just be streaming mp3 of Spotify but that doesn't mean it sounds better

And some people have claimed that it takes objectivists to destroy a completely reasonable and civil discussion. Please back off, thank you.

 

[Joe Whip]

Both can sound fantastic. I do have a nice VPI/Kuzma/Clearaudio vinyl set up and 600 LPs. However, since getting into computer based digital, now with the Gumby DAC, I never listen to the LPs. The digital whether RB or high res sounds superb, spacious, open, detailed and dare I say it, warm.

 

[FrantzM]

And some people have claimed that it takes objectivists to destroy a completely reasonable and civil discussion. Please back off, thank you.

+1

Thanks Al.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Truth to be told a ripped (to CD) LP sounds as identical as it can to the original. Very few people would be able to distinguish them with knowledge removed and that however long they want to try .. Of course once knowledge returns .. It would not be even be close

Frantz,

Unfortunately this an old never proved or substantiated rumor in terms of high-end. I have never been pointed of listening tests carried in proper conditions (method and system) where a CD reproduction of a needle drop was shown to sound indistinguishable from from a top vinyl LP reproduction.
All I read are comparisons carried in shows, audiophile meetings or similar. BTW, I am assuming CD (redbook) versus LP, not HiRez or DSD.

I have many times praised CD sound, since long I have said it can be much better that most people assume when using SOTA DACs in an system optimized for its characteristics, but do I not pretend that at the current status CD sound can equate all the best aspects of a top LP.

 

[TBG]

My digital is now all quad DSD with about half coming from SACDs that are converted to DSD. In my opinion, what I am hearing in digital has considerably superior top end and has more ambiance and character to instruments that heretofore could only be heard in live presence. The instances of upsampling of 44.1 to quad DSD sound good but don't have much of the detail and realism. But there is a strange fault to this realism, namely it is often the microphones' positioning not the audience' perspective. I have a few recording that were recorded in DSD that are quite real sounding, although the performances are marginal.

 

[JackD201]

People like you make it impossible to have a foodfight ...



I went actually the other way. I was heavily into vinyl and it was well set-up and plenty good for the time (about 10 years ago !!) I started noticing that I was listening much more to the digital gear than the Vinyl .. And frankly I wasn't losing anything. It comes to an aesthetics approach IMHO. Some like the presentation of a good vinyl system and some don't.
I take exception however when some declare the Vinyl superior with an inference of absolute superiority from Vinyl which is not the case IME. To me the test is how close CD can copy vinyl and it is close to 100%... Close enough for cognoscenti to be fooled. Would anyone think that an analog chain can produce close to a perfect copy? Allow me to have my doubts.

At one show a long time ago, the platter was spinning but the lifter was up. It was near closing time and we were playing a CD while we got ready to pack up our personal belongings for the day. A visitor came in and said, "Wow, vinyl is really so much better". I didn't know what to say, so I just smiled politely. He noticed his error smiled sheepishly and left quietly. One thing vinyl definitely has that CD doesn't is that it has this romance about it.

I get what you're saying Frantz. I actually listen to digital a lot more than vinyl in terms of total hours. I'm in the car many hours a day and my bedroom system is digital. How many people do you know weight the entertainment package options heavily when deciding on a new car! Not many I'm sure! LOL! I don't miss much really. I still pump my fist when a rocking track plays from the car stereo, which isn't even stereo but rather matrixed surround from compressed files no less. So I do agree that it may very well be an aesthetic issue. I might just add to that that the aesthetics too can be toggled between. What I call my mental adjustments or nerdily refer to as personal expectation management . I can switch back and forth these days without much of the cognitive dissonance years past. I don't think it's because my digital and analog now sound the same because they don't. I think it is just because neither do the many different things that have the potential to really irritate me. Well that and maybe just that I've learned to better manage the switch over from format to format over time and listen through instead of at the problems when I don't have to.

Oh I like SS vs tubes food fights better LOL!

 

[FrantzM]

Frantz,

Unfortunately this an old never proved or substantiated rumor in terms of high-end. I have never been pointed of listening tests carried in proper conditions (method and system) where a CD reproduction of a needle drop was shown to sound indistinguishable from from a top vinyl LP reproduction.
All I read are comparisons carried in shows, audiophile meetings or similar. BTW, I am assuming CD (redbook) versus LP, not HiRez or DSD.

I have many times praised CD sound, since long I have said it can be much better that most people assume when using SOTA DACs in an system optimized for its characteristics, but do I not pretend that at the current status CD sound can equate all the best aspects of a top LP.

microstrip

Let us accept for a second your definition of "rumor".. It seems such "rumors" are being circulated by analog-loving people whose knowledge about High End Audio is beyond denial: Bruce B here and Mr Analog himself: Michael Fremer ... Their conclusions anecdotal not scientific. You would admit that Michael and Bruce's systems have enough resolutions and those people know what they should be listening to ? Good conditions I guess. Would you tell us then us what are you proposing that could be termed "proper conditions"?

None of us can pretend anything only offer an opinion. I would think the opinions of someone whose jobs is to master some .. Masterpieces of recorded music and another whose dedication to the LP medium has made of him the poster person for analog, carry wight .. My own ears made me share this opinion .. then again I don't trust mine much: they are too easily fooled

 

[TBone]

Unfortunately this an old never proved or substantiated rumor in terms of high-end.

Maybe not in your audiophile world, but in mine and many others, it's been done repeatedly.

Without any doubt, I'm very pro vinyl ... but I've also done my homework which has led to further realizations, leading to refinements benefiting my turntable/system in certain ways that couldn't have been realized or achieved otherwise.

Therefore, I can safely say, without reservation: no matter how "superior" or "high-end" ANYONE thinks their specific turntable is in comparison to not only CD, but other 'tables ... until you rip, measure & reconcile, you're just assuming ...

 

[microstrip]

microstrip

Let us accept for a second your definition of "rumor".. It seems such "rumors" are being circulated by analog-loving people whose knowledge about High End Audio is beyond denial: Bruce B here and Mr Analog himself: Michael Fremer ... Their conclusions anecdotal not scientific. You would admit that Michael and Bruce's systems have enough resolutions and those people know what they should be listening to ? Good conditions I guess. Would you tell us then us what are you proposing that could be termed "proper conditions"?

None of us can pretend anything only offer an opinion. I would think the opinions of someone whose jobs is to master some .. Masterpieces of recorded music and another whose dedication to the LP medium has made of him the poster person for analog, carry wight .. My own ears made me share this opinion .. then again I don't trust mine much: they are too easily fooled

Could you point me to those links where the people you report say that redbook format needle drops were indistinguishable from the LP playback? I would prefer to comment on the factual data than rumors. IMHO we should comment on the facts, not on the people credibility, the first rule for a civilized and proper share of opinions.

 

[microstrip]

Maybe not in your audiophile world, but in mine and many others, it's been done repeatedly. (...)

Why do you keep such good news private? I have to say that I even bought a Korg MR2000 to carry my own tests, got rips from WBF friendly posters of the Shefield Lab Harry James DD and found that different digital formats sounded different and all inferior to the direct playback.

 

[thedudeabides]

Could you point me to those links where the people you report say that redbook format needle drops were indistinguishable from the LP playback?

Can someone please explain the relevance of listening to a "needle drop" and why that is important in allegedly determining the superiority of one media over another?

With all due respect, I find this quite baffling and incomprehensible.

 

[microstrip]

Can someone please explain the relevance of listening to a "needle drop" and why that is important in allegedly determining the superiority of one media over another?

With all due respect, I find this quite baffling and incomprehensible.

thedudeabides,

I have to say that my interest in others experience is mostly pragmatic and cultural - I would be much happier in a sound reproduction digital world - no more record cleaning machines, turntables or cartridges, no freight or customs expenses getiing LPs! But as a music chamber and jazz listener I do not feel good creating a system that limits the sound quality possible in my listening room. And I know I am not alone ...

My apologies if you find it baffling and incomprehensible.