Vinyl and Digital: How does the sound or listening experience differ?

[microstrip]

I have been thinking more and more about the convergence of reference analog and digital.

IMO they will never converge. Vinyl has some attributes that digital does not aim to emulate. With tape we know what to aim, versus vinyl digital is competing with divergence - a lost battle, IMO.

(...) If you are lucky enough to have a reference table and DAC, the arguably it’s more about the availability of music and the highest quality of masterings.

Well, in this hobby it is mostly an affair of listener preference - it surpasses everything.

Anyway, curious about what is a reference turntable - Jacob's AirForce zero?

 

[Lee]

Well how many times have we heard 'digital now matches analog' over the years? I see you did caveat it by saying at reference level, which may be true. Problem is very few digital releases are reference level.

At reference level, I believe this is true. The Varese was the turning point for me. It sounds analog to my ears.

To make these comparisons, you have to say all other conditions being equal. So yes, one needs a well done digital recording. But there are many of those. In my recording work, for instance, I learned how good DSD in particular can be at recreating live classical performances.

 

[Lee]

IMO they will never converge. Vinyl has some attributes that digital does not aim to emulate. With tape we know what to aim, versus vinyl digital is competing with divergence - a lost battle, IMO.



Well, in this hobby it is mostly an affair of listener preference - it surpasses everything.

Anyway, curious about what is a reference turntable - Jacob's AirForce zero?

Which attributes?

When I was typing my post, I was remembering the ability of either format to create a performance that is lifelike.

I might add that my friend Jim H brought over the 15 ips Acony tape of Harrow and the Harvest and we played it on my modified Revox. It sounded like Gillian Welch and David Rawlings were in the room! Jim H and I were blown away.

So there is no bigger fan of analog than myself…but the Varese can also create this level of magic.

 

[tima]

I might add that my friend Jim H brought over the 15 ips Acony tape of Harrow and the Harvest and we played it on my modified Revox. It sounded like Gillian Welch and David Rawlings were in the room! Jim H and I were blown away.

Acony label: ACNY-1109

 

[microstrip]

Which attributes?

All the distortions due to its electromechanical behavior, either in the cutting and playback system. Just replacing the mat of the turntable can create a night and day difference in the sound of a turntable, how do you explain it? I do not think it is due to electrical noise!

When I was typing my post, I was remembering the ability of either format to create a performance that is lifelike.

I might add that my friend Jim H brought over the 15 ips Acony tape of Harrow and the Harvest and we played it on my modified Revox. It sounded like Gillian Welch and David Rawlings were in the room! Jim H and I were blown away.

I think all of us went through particular moments in particular situations with particular recordings when we experienced such situations where our mind in triggered in such belief. It is curious that I found such situations happen mostly with a friend or in collective listening - we are more skeptical when we are alone. It is all an illusion ...

I went through these experiences with either media along decades. But
IMO unique experiences are really interesting, but of little value as an argument.

So there is no bigger fan of analog than myself…but the Varese can also create this level of magic.

Even old digital systems could recreate it - but we would need to tune the system for it. At some time I had the Forsell air transport and DAC with the Cello Audio Palette and Cello amplifiers. With some recordings it was really life like, unfortunately many others sounded miserable.

I can't consider myself fan of any gear or media, I am simply a fan of the hobby. And I accept its implications.

 

[Lee]

All the distortions due to its electromechanical behavior, either in the cutting and playback system. Just replacing the mat of the turntable can create a night and day difference in the sound of a turntable, how do you explain it? I do not think it is due to electrical noise!



I think all of us went through particular moments in particular situations with particular recordings when we experienced such situations where our mind in triggered in such belief. It is curious that I found such situations happen mostly with a friend or in collective listening - we are more skeptical when we are alone. It is all an illusion ...

I went through these experiences with either media along decades. But
IMO unique experiences are really interesting, but of little value as an argument.



Even old digital systems could recreate it - but we would need to tune the system for it. At some time I had the Forsell air transport with the Cello Audio Palette and Cello amplifiers. With some recordings it was really life like, unfortunately many others sounded miserable.

I can't consider myself fan of any gear or media, I am simply a fan of the hobby. And I accept its implications.

The Forsell stuff is excellent but this new version of true mono DACs hits a new level of subterranean noise floor. You hear it on female vocals which sound incredibly realistic.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

IMO they will never converge.

agree, at least in our lifetimes. nothing on the horizon tells us it's close.

Vinyl has some attributes that digital does not aim to emulate.

there are vinyl attributes digital cannot currently achieve. levels of energy and tonal density for instance.

With tape we know what to aim, versus vinyl digital is competing with divergence - a lost battle, IMO.

digital is not catching the best of tape either. digital has it's own artifacts holding it back. but agree that some minor vinyl artifacts make it a slightly different picture.

Well, in this hobby it is mostly an affair of listener preference - it surpasses everything.

agree.

Anyway, curious about what is a reference turntable - Jacob's AirForce zero?

maybe someone's?

my opinion about turntables is that a reference one should have as little of it's own character as possible. not personally heard the Zero, but am told it most definitely has a superb/wonderful coloration/character. maybe the Wilson Benesch GMT One is closer to neutral and might be that most reference of tt's. Or the American Sound Absolute Nothing tt too as ultimate References. at lesser dollars even the Esoteric T1 w/clock or the AS-2000 are a couple more neutral sounding. likely a few others too that would pass that test and be Reference-like. unless/until you have them all together hard to really nail down the hierarchy. arms and cartridge choices matter too.

 

[Lee]

there vinyl are attributes digital cannot currently achieve. levels of energy and tonal density for instance.

I differ here; I hear lots of energy and tonal density on the Varese.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I differ here; I hear lots of energy and tonal density on the Varese.

if we listen to better pressings together with any digital then we see where that gets us. i'm not questioning the wonderfulness of the Varese, or Sentinel, or any digital.

Jacob has a Varese sitting there with the Wilson Benesch and the Zero. ask him about it. i have.

media rules.

 

[microstrip]

agree, at least in our lifetimes. nothing on the horizon tells us it's close.

there vinyl are attributes digital cannot currently achieve. levels of energy and tonal density for instance.

Nice names to what you later call "superb/wonderful coloration/character."
I will specify "added superb/wonderful coloration/character." YMMV, surely.

IMO just changing speakers would give us very different levels of energy and tonal density.

digital is not catching the best of tape either. digital has it's own artifacts holding it back. but agree that some minor vinyl artifacts make it a slightly different picture.

Well, some of the digital recordings I enjoy best could not have been possible with the limitations of tape. As I am not an addicted to the Kingsway Hall acoustics I find some digital recordings more realistic than the classical audiophile approved best classical LPs.

(...) my opinion about turntables is that a reference one should have as little of it's own character as possible.

How are we able to judge it?

not personally heard the Zero, but am told it most definitely has a superb/wonderful coloration/character. maybe the Wilson Benesch GMT One is closer to neutral and might be that most reference of tt's. Or the American Sound Absolute Nothing tt too as ultimate References. at lesser dollars even the Esoteric T1 w/clock or the AS-2000 are a couple more neutral sounding. likely a few others too that would pass that test and be Reference-like. unless/until you have them all together hard to really nail down the hierarchy.

Thanks for a long list of maybe's. I have owned several turntable systems that I could call excellent sounding, but they sounded so different from each other that I do not dare to call one more neutral than others in absolute terms. I could compare them against a Studer A80 with just a few recordings, but could not rate or establish an hierarchy. But I picked one to prefer after some listening, surely.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

How are we able to judge it?

like anything. listen to lots of pressings and notice any sameness, verses each more distinct.

my CS Port LFT1 is a slight bit more colored than my Esoteric T1. we can debate why, i have my hunches, but easy to hear. and some listeners prefer it's more laid back character. just like some prefer the more rounded hefty Zero to the more neutral, explosive, incisive Wilson Benesch.

 

[Lee]

All the distortions due to its electromechanical behavior, either in the cutting and playback system. Just replacing the mat of the turntable can create a night and day difference in the sound of a turntable, how do you explain it? I do not think it is due to electrical noise!



I think all of us went through particular moments in particular situations with particular recordings when we experienced such situations where our mind in triggered in such belief. It is curious that I found such situations happen mostly with a friend or in collective listening - we are more skeptical when we are alone. It is all an illusion ...

I went through these experiences with either media along decades. But
IMO unique experiences are really interesting, but of little value as an argument.



Even old digital systems could recreate it - but we would need to tune the system for it. At some time I had the Forsell air transport with the Cello Audio Palette and Cello amplifiers. With some recordings it was really life like, unfortunately many others sounded miserable.

I can't consider myself fan of any gear or media, I am simply a fan of the hobby. And I accept its implications.

Nah, with respect to Cello which was amazing, modern DACs sound so much better than what was available then. Go listen to Wadax at Elliot’s place in Boca or Scott’s Varese at Evolution.

 

[Lee]

if we listen to better pressings together with any digital then we see where that gets us. i'm not questioning the wonderfulness of the Varese, or Sentinel, or any digital.

Jacob has a Varese sitting there with the Wilson Benesch and the Zero. ask him about it. i have.

media rules.

Agree 100% on media rules. A great mastering really dictates emotional involvement. Sometimes that great mastering happens on analog, sometimes it happens on digital.

I will be at Jacob’s right after Capitol to hear the Trios so maybe we can do a comparison.

 

[microstrip]

Nah, with respect to Cello which was amazing, modern DACs sound so much better than what was available then. Go listen to Wadax at Elliot’s place in Boca or Scott’s Varese at Evolution.

Sorry , the DAC was the also from Forsell - much more musical than the Apogee DAC with Cello output stage. Surely modern DACs are much better, I do not need to travel to Evolution to listen to the Varese ...

 

[PeterA]

agree, at least in our lifetimes. nothing on the horizon tells us it's close.

there are vinyl attributes digital cannot currently achieve. levels of energy and tonal density for instance.

digital is not catching the best of tape either. digital has it's own artifacts holding it back. but agree that some minor vinyl artifacts make it a slightly different picture.

agree.

maybe someone's?

my opinion about turntables is that a reference one should have as little of it's own character as possible. not personally heard the Zero, but am told it most definitely has a superb/wonderful coloration/character. maybe the Wilson Benesch GMT One is closer to neutral and might be that most reference of tt's. Or the American Sound Absolute Nothing tt too as ultimate References. at lesser dollars even the Esoteric T1 w/clock or the AS-2000 are a couple more neutral sounding. likely a few others too that would pass that test and be Reference-like. unless/until you have them all together hard to really nail down the hierarchy. arms and cartridge choices matter too.

I agree Mike. Despite vinyl playback's "mechanical" artifacts, it still manages to impress and sound natural. It is even improving it some cases. Digital also has it's positive and negative attributes. The two may both be improving and sounding more like music, but they remain distinct sounds, IMO, based on my limited exposure to each over many years.

I have not heard the AF Zero either. I have heard it is not neutral. If it has a similar character to the AF One, it is most definitely colored. I find the latter a bit damped sounding similar to SME. It is not a reference. In a direct comparison between the AF One and the AS2000 using the same arms and various cartridges, the AS2000 did sound much more alive and like music.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I have not heard the AF Zero either. I have heard it is not neutral. If it has a similar character to the AF One, it is most definitely colored. I find the latter a bit damped sounding similar to SME. It is not a reference. In a direct comparison between the AF One and the AS2000 using the same arms and various cartridges, the AS2000 did sound much more alive and like music.

agree about the AF One Premium's sound. heard it at ddk's directly compared to his other tt's. great sounding (heard by itself) but objectively a very slight bit mechanical and a slight touch dry. i'm told the Zero goes in the opposite direction.....big and sexy and lush....to a fault but you don't care as the music caresses you.....and it's dead quiet, powerful and flowing.

 

[Lee]

agree about the AF One Premium's sound. heard it at ddk's directly compared to his other tt's. great sounding (heard by itself) but objectively a very slight bit mechanical and a slight touch dry. i'm told the Zero goes in the opposite direction.....big and sexy and lush....to a fault but you don't care as the music caresses you.....and it's dead quiet, powerful and flowing.

I heard the Zero at Jacob’s on the prior WAMM and Dartzeel system. It sounded very natural to my ears. It didn’t strike me as being colored. I believe he loves the Wilson Benesch as well.

 

[microstrip]

(...) I have not heard the AF Zero either. I have heard it is not neutral. If it has a similar character to the AF One, it is most definitely colored.

Yes, we know all your friends own AF Zero's ... It would be fair if you nominate those who have such opinion.

I find the latter a bit damped sounding similar to SME. It is not a reference. In a direct comparison between the AF One and the AS2000 using the same arms and various cartridges, the AS2000 did sound much more alive and like music.

I owned the AF One Premium, could compare it in my system with the SME30 and EMT927 for some time. Compared to tape or the dCS Vivaldi the EMT927 was clearly more colored, the SME30 more damped and the AF One Premium more neutral. Surely in damped systems the EMT927 would sound more alive. I also listened several times in a friend system to the Continuum versus the AF One Premium, both impressive turntables, I can't say which was more neutral as I did not have experience enough with his great Magico Q7mk2.

We all now know audio reviewers are deaf and should be ignored but as the TecDas AFOne and TecDas AFOne Premium have been in production for more than ten years we have lots of reviews and written opinions of them , such as in Stereophile, TAS, Audionivana or Positive Feedback praising the neutral spectral balance or the supression of unwanted mechanical colouration .

IME a knowledgeable audiophile owning a top turntable would pick a tonearm and cartridge matching his specific turntable for optimal sound, avoiding dumb compares. This is a complex hobby.

 

[microstrip]

agree about the AF One Premium's sound. heard it at ddk's directly compared to his other tt's. great sounding (heard by itself) but objectively a very slight bit mechanical and a slight touch dry.

You probably listened to it using the SME3012R ...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

You probably listened to it using the SME3012R ...

yup.