Vinyl Help - Turntable, Cartridge, Phono Stage? Help - My digital sounds WAY better than my Vinyl

[cfgardei1]

Speakerlab (this will date me!) did an interesting experiment back in the 80's: The put a musician and his guitar in one room with a top-quality microphone, and they put a top-quality amplifier and their speakers (S7s, which probably wouldn't qualify as "hifi" today) in an adjacent room.

Guess what? With NO recording or playback equipment whatsoever, the results (according to the article) were "breathtaking" to a myriad array of listeners. I'm not surprised: I've had some 2nd-generation master tapes sound amazing through my Phase Linear 700 and Infinity RS 4.5's (I SAID this would date me!)

Bottom line for me: the "weak link" in my listening is now my ears, not any of the equipment I use. Bottom line for all of you: do whatever makes you happy. I now longer own any LPs or CDs or my once-prized master tapes (or VHS tapes!), so I stream Tidal to my Parasounds - directly, no preamp - driving my 30.7s (with SVS PB4000 subs). And EVERYBODY (laymen to audiophile to musicians) tells me it's the best sound they ever heard. I concur...

As for "going from mainstream into the stratospheric upper echelon": please beware that there is NO niche that the audio manufacturers haven't tried to satisfy - at great expense to the consumer. One dealer tried to sell me a horse-penis-sized power cord: a 3-foot long cord between the wall outlet and the amplifier. This product consisting of 3 WIRES (which is all a power cord is) was $1800!

Come on, people! the wire carrying the power the 150 feet from the breaker panel to the wall outlet was standard 12/3+G Romex.

So, to get this straight: I have toothpick-diameter wire carrying power 150 feet, but by inserting a BIG wire for the last 3 feet it's going to make a difference??!! I guess if I pour a gallon of distilled water in the Ganges river, it will clean it up...

 

[Al M.]

As for "going from mainstream into the stratospheric upper echelon": please beware that there is NO niche that the audio manufacturers haven't tried to satisfy - at great expense to the consumer. One dealer tried to sell me a horse-penis-sized power cord: a 3-foot long cord between the wall outlet and the amplifier. This product consisting of 3 WIRES (which is all a power cord is) was $1800!

Come on, people! the wire carrying the power the 150 feet from the breaker panel to the wall outlet was standard 12/3+G Romex.

My wire from the breaker box is upgraded to 10/3, makes a big difference. Length is 35 feet, not 150 -- the shortest they could make (not ideal, but still...).

So, to get this straight: I have toothpick-diameter wire carrying power 150 feet, but by inserting a BIG wire for the last 3 feet it's going to make a difference??!! I guess if I pour a gallon of distilled water in the Ganges river, it will clean it up...

This s not quite correct:

Audiophile power cords vs. the cables in your walls

Try making a cable out of Romex... seriously, have fun. I have seen it done. They’re extremely hard to move, and because of that they will come loose from the plugs (internally). But also you aren’t as likely to maintain the relationship with the ground in the middle as cleanly. What really...

www.whatsbestforum.com

(Post #112 and following by Billinge.)

I used to be a power cord skeptic, not anymore.

 

[cfgardei1]

Your length might be 35 feet - mine is about 150 (because of where the breaker box is from the outlet). Romex would NOT be used in any environment where you need to move the power cord ((that's why extension cords - even 12 gauge - are made with stranded wire, not solid (like Romex))

But: you're missing my point: 12 gauge (or 10 gauge, like yours) is TINY compared to these aftermarket cables. So: using them (the cables) is pointless and anyone who claims to hear any difference needs to look up "placebo effect" in the dictionary.

I had this argument with my hifi dealer (the very one who tried to pawn them off on me) and guess what? I offered to put up $10,000 and do double-blind listening test on ANY system in his store (replacing one power cord with the other, at random) and if he could guess which power cord was being used at least 6 out of 10 times, the $10K would be his. He accepted - but then I reminded him that, if he couldn't, he'd owe me $10K. He wouldn't do it, so his confidence was false

 

[jeff1225]

That’s normal. Digital sounds better than vinyl in most home audio setups. Don’t get me wrong—when a vinyl setup is done properly, it can sound better than any digital source. But it requires a certain amount of knowledge, time and good equipment (turntable, tonearm, cartridge, phono stage, etc.) with proper alignment. Even then, you still need well-cut and well-pressed records. In the end total cost may be more than what you’re willing to spend. I’m afraid beating digital won’t happen with a U-Turn turntable.

You may receive responses arguing that vinyl can outperform digital even with the equipment you have right now, but I don’t think it’s true. I’m fully into vinyl and believe in its superiority in terms of sound quality, but I’m also aware what digital can offer. Knowledge is very important to make a vinyl setup sound good, even more so than the equipment itself.

I think this comment has a lot of truth. In my opinion, it is much easier and less expensive to achieve a musically satisfying front end with digital. And it’s not just the equipment or the set up, it’s also the hardware. You can’t just buy an album from Amazon throw it on, and think it will sound better. Especially with mass market releases of newer bands.

 

[Wolfsongaudio]

The act of playing an LP is dragging a rock through plastic. The smallest deviation in the groove wall of an PL is one millionth of a meter long. It MATTERS where the rock hits the plastic.

Have a qualified technician come to your home and do an on site calibration. There is no better $$$ spent.

 

[SeagoatLeo]

My wire from the breaker box is upgraded to 10/3, makes a big difference. Length is 35 feet, not 150 -- the shortest they could make (not ideal, but still...).



This s not quite correct:

Audiophile power cords vs. the cables in your walls

Try making a cable out of Romex... seriously, have fun. I have seen it done. They’re extremely hard to move, and because of that they will come loose from the plugs (internally). But also you aren’t as likely to maintain the relationship with the ground in the middle as cleanly. What really...

www.whatsbestforum.com

(Post #112 and following by Billinge.)

I used to be a power cord skeptic, not anymore.

My wire from the breaker box is upgraded to 10/3, makes a big difference. Length is 35 feet, not 150 -- the shortest they could make (not ideal, but still...).



This s not quite correct:

Audiophile power cords vs. the cables in your walls

Try making a cable out of Romex... seriously, have fun. I have seen it done. They’re extremely hard to move, and because of that they will come loose from the plugs (internally). But also you aren’t as likely to maintain the relationship with the ground in the middle as cleanly. What really...

www.whatsbestforum.com

(Post #112 and following by Billinge.)

I used to be a power cord skeptic, not anymor

My wire from the breaker box is upgraded to 10/3, makes a big difference. Length is 35 feet, not 150 -- the shortest they could make (not ideal, but still...).



This s not quite correct:

Audiophile power cords vs. the cables in your walls

Try making a cable out of Romex... seriously, have fun. I have seen it done. They’re extremely hard to move, and because of that they will come loose from the plugs (internally). But also you aren’t as likely to maintain the relationship with the ground in the middle as cleanly. What really...

www.whatsbestforum.com

(Post #112 and following by Billinge.)

I used to be a power cord skeptic, not anymore.

I installed the same power wire in my first custom built listening room back in 1993 and then again in my current (last) home in 2019. Absolutely worth it.

Why is cfgardei1 posting on WBF. He is either a troll or some highly uneducated audiophile who considers himself an authority on music and sonics, certainly absent electrical engineering credentials (he offers his own perceptions with no scientific evidence). Even with EE credentials he could be considered incorrect but he goes out of his way to call all of us stupid and easily fooled. Sounds much like ASR but worse. I laugh at his assertions, challenge and proofs.

 

[Anton D]

thanks for the input. much appreciated. i will do some homework on vinyl from analog sources and also will make sure my setup is dialed in. i know my setup is super low end compared to many, but was hopeful i could at least get close to my bang for buck digital setup without scrapping college for one of my four kids . I have some vinyl, and I at least want the sound to be tolerable as I study the cover art. Looks like Van Morrison Astral Weeks gets nice marks and is analog to vinyl. Can't hurt to pick up such a lovely album.

Dialed in is the key. Don't go spending until you are sure you've properly achieved a confident cartridge/arm set up!

Also, whichever sound you prefer is the right answer!

Welcome!

 

[Anton D]

The act of playing an LP is dragging a rock through plastic. The smallest deviation in the groove wall of an PL is one millionth of a meter long. It MATTERS where the rock hits the plastic.

Have a qualified technician come to your home and do an on site calibration. There is no better $$$ spent.

So correct that I wanted to quote it and endorse it!

 

[Bartolo1]

The act of playing an LP is dragging a rock through plastic. The smallest deviation in the groove wall of an PL is one millionth of a meter long. It MATTERS where the rock hits the plastic.

Have a qualified technician come to your home and do an on site calibration. There is no better $$$ spent.

After some hand-wringing about what if anything to do about improving my vinyl playback -- nothing vs. upgrade cartridge vs. entirely new setup -- I went the middle route. I bought an Etna Lambda SL (to replace a rather mid ClearAudio) and it's being shipped directly to JR for him to evaluate and measure. When he's in my area he'll come to our home to set it up on my existing table with all of his measurement tools etc etc.

 

[khill007]

I have a Planer 6 with a ND7 MM cart that was purchased just to see what the hype was about (Apheta 3 MC still sitting in its box after installing ND7) and a Hagerman Trumpet MC pre that may be one of the best bang for the buck components I've ever owned. It has bested some phono pre's that were close to 10k.

My system, room, and ears of course!

 

[Rexp]

New to the forum. I am looking for a little help improving my vinyl setup.

My digital setup is Tidal (hi-fi) into a Musical Fidelity x10dac into a Musical Fidelity A5 integrated Amp. Speakers are Magnepan 1.6 (MG1.6QR). High-quality recordings sound magical—huge soundstage, detailed, but also with a lovely warmth, especially going through the tube stage on the x10dac.

I dipped my toes into vinyl with a Uturn Audio Orbit. I got it with the upgraded acrylic platter and a Grado Black1. I am disappointed with the sound quality,a and it's just not fun to play records when they sound like this. Perhaps the mistake was the Grado Black? Or perhaps I was expecting too much from vinyl?

Is this saveable with a better cartridge? Or maybe a phono preamp? Most think the phone stage on the A5 is solid. Perhaps a better turntable?

Part of me thinks I nailed it with putting together the digital setup and I may not be able to achieve the same with vinyl?? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks all!!!

Thank you for starting a digital vs analog thread, it's important to reaffirm that even sub $1000 turntables using well recorded LP's blow away any digital player, regardless of cost. Afraid no one here can fix your problem without being hands on.

 

[SeagoatLeo]

After some hand-wringing about what if anything to do about improving my vinyl playback -- nothing vs. upgrade cartridge vs. entirely new setup -- I went the middle route. I bought an Etna Lambda SL (to replace a rather mid ClearAudio) and it's being shipped directly to JR for him to evaluate and measure. When he's in my area he'll come to our home to set it up on my existing table with all of his measurement tools etc etc.

You purchased an $11,000 cartridge? I have a $215,000+ main system. I hope that you will realize the maximum sonic attributes of that cartridge. I am using a Dynavector 20X2 L on a highly modified SME IV arm into an EAR 324 phono pre-amp, the cost of which is less than your cartridge and enjoy superb analog sound. It is set up to perfection. If I had your cartridge, I would want to mate it to a Kronos turntable and arm at a minimum (I've loved the Air Tight Opus 1 cartridge for $15K+ combo).

 

[SeagoatLeo]

Thank you for starting a digital vs analog thread, it's important to reaffirm that even sub $1000 turntables using well recorded LP's blow away any digital player, regardless of cost. Afraid no one here can fix your problem without being hands on.

Where did you get you information from? Sub $1K (assuming new) turntables "blow away any digital player, regardless of cost." That's sounds very foolish! You should retract your statement and read more comments.

 

[Rexp]

Where did you get you information from? Sub $1K (assuming new) turntables "blow away any digital player, regardless of cost." That's sounds very foolish! You should retract your statement and read more comments.

Why from listening of course, try a Project or Rega deck, put on a good AAA LP and be fully engaged in the music, switch to digital and the engagement is diminished.

And why would I listen to ignorant comments when I've actually owned a high-end store and played around with hundreds of systems?

 

[khill007]

Why from listening of course, try a Project or Rega deck, put on a good AAA LP and be fully engaged in the music, switch to digital and the engagement is diminished.

And why would I listen to ignorant comments when I've actually owned a high-end store and played around with hundreds of systems?

My kind of audiophile!

 

[SeagoatLeo]

My kind of audiophile!

You two posters make me laugh. My friends recorded or remastered the same LPs you probably are listening to. You can play around with all the equipment you want, that doesn't make you articulate in deciding that cheap analog reproduction ALWAYS beats ALL digital reproduction. I am also an amateur recording engineer in major venues, a musician who has sung with orchestras, chamber and choruses. For 66 years, my experience LISTENING to music in many recorded and reproduced forms permits me to sustain the assertion that digital music reproduction can and often does surpass rudimentary/cheap LP reproduction.

I don't know why you are even on this site? Are you LP uber alles type audiophiles? I have friends who are and also who only listen to digital reproduced music. There is room for both. To state categorically that one negates the other's technical and aesthetic capabilities at reproducing music in all it's forms is nonsense.

Two worse statements than Audio Science Review.

I get criticized on WBF for occasionally mentioning my personal speaker preference. You two posters take the cake.

 

[delm]

@jdmac, how does your vinyl playback sound bad ? I have many pop records from 60s and 70s that have little bass and that comes from a decision in cutting the master to put more material on a side at the expense of bass.

 

[Rexp]

For 66 years, my experience LISTENING to music in many recorded and reproduced forms permits me to sustain the assertion that digital music reproduction can and often does surpass rudimentary/cheap LP reproduction.

Nope, you're just some random dude who likes the sound of CD's when most people with good ears like the dealer in the video below will tell you CD is best used for background music. So stop the misinformation (appreciate you maybe unaware you're doing it).

 

[cfgardei1]

Many flew over the cuckcoo's nest...

 

[Bartolo1]

@jdmac, how does your vinyl playback sound bad ? I have many pop records from 60s and 70s that have little bass and that comes from a decision in cutting the master to put more material on a side at the expense of bass.

My 200ish record collection also is heavy in 60s and 70s rock, but I've spent some time reading up on 'best versions' and acquiring those. Just a random case in point, we played a German first pressing of Wish You Were Here yesterday and it sounded fabulous -- little details really shine through. And little details in Pink Floyd recordings is a very fun part of their music.