Wave Kinetics NVS Reference Turntable Review on Positive Feedback

[PeterA]

It should be, but it seems (and I don't know all the specific details) that this sample was not a new production sample and its actual condition was unknown. Isn't this why reviewers generally go to the manufacturer to ask for a sample to make sure it is on known provenance?

If a sample is obtained in a more traditional way then there is no reason why the results shouldn't be representative of the whole.

Why do you assume this sample is not representative? All we know is that the turntable was sent in for repair because it was “non-functioning“. We don’t know anything more about it. Perhaps it was non-functioning because of the digital display not working and needing to be replaced. We don’t know anything about Whether or not the repair had anything to do with speed issues.

What we do know is the observation that the motor has an iron core which produces cogging. I assume every sample of this turntable has the same motor. What we don’t know is whether or not the cogging is audible. It is certainly miserable. We also know that this sample as tested does not meet the published specifications of the manufacturer. To me, those are the two relevant pieces of information out of the report.

No one seems to be claiming that the sample is not representative. Anyone with an interest or owning the turntable could do measurements and share them to provide an alternative result.

All we have is a attempt to make the subject about the circumstances of the test, the motivation behind sharing the results, and the speculations that the sample might be tainted. Very funny are the ludicrous comments suggesting a conspiracy theory that David Karmeli is somehow behind all of this. Tim is right, he could care less.

 

[dminches]

Why do you assume this sample is not representative? All we know is that the turntable was sent in for repair because it was “non-functioning“. We don’t know anything more about it. Perhaps it was non-functioning because of the digital display not working and needing to be replaced. We don’t know anything about Whether or not the repair had anything to do with speed issues.

Why do you assume it is representative?

 

[djsina2]

Why do you assume it is representative?

The one that was recently for sale was an older unit and had drive issues. It had been sent in for repair 3x and was still not fixed or operating properly. This is why it was for sale at a very low price. I believe this is the same one that was tested? I mentioned this in a prior post right before Phoenix deleted everything.

 

[PeterA]

Why do you assume it is representative?

I do not. I’m just commenting on the test results that were shared. There’s no reason to assume it is or isn’t representative. We just don’t know. I object to the deflection and attempts to explain some nefarious reason for all.

 

[dminches]

I do not. I’m just commenting on the test results that were shared. There’s no reason to assume it is or isn’t representative. We just don’t know. I object to the deflection and attempts to explain some nefarious reason for all.

Not sure what you are referring to with respect to "deflection and attempts to explain some nefarious reason for all" since I haven't participated in that despite the fact that you have now twice quoted my post and included references to that notion. I'd appreciate it if you would stop doing that.

 

[PeterA]

Not sure what you are referring to with respect to "deflection and attempts to explain some nefarious reason for all" since I haven't participated in that despite the fact that you have now twice quoted my post and included references to that notion. I'd appreciate it if you would stop doing that.

Point taken. I was not referring to you but answering your questions and referring to the general tone of the thread. You are not the one referring to me as some agent for David Karmeli or accusing me of deflection. I apologize for the implication.

 

[Kingrex]

Oddly this morning. I was having a conversation with a friend about speakers, crossovers and amplifier voicing. We were agreeing. The equipment is built to create a particular sound.

Maybe a question is, how is the sound so good if the speed accuracy is not absolutly perfect. Or is it and the test is wrong.

Maybe I missed it, but what do we know about the methodology of the test. He measured off the encoder? What does this mean. Did he measure at the platter surface with a stand alone calibrated device?

What if it was there to have the speed controller repaired? Isn't that the encoder? He's using numbers obtained during a test via a process and variables that might influence the outcome.

What we know is he doesn't like the type motor used on the table and is saying during a static bench top test of that type of motor with no load attached, it will behave a certain way. That is not how an assembly of parts ultimatly behaves. Maybe the platter smooths out anomalies in the motor and provide a more precise speed. Maybe that topology of motor has better Torque. Maybe it has less noise or easier to mitigate noise. Maybe supports a platter better. It may have some other attributes that brings the whole of the table to a higher level when its utilized in a final assembly.

 

[ChristanG]

I would like to let you know that I am the individual who uncrated the turntable in question. The table is dealing with the screen issue that has happened and is well documented with other customers. There was no tonearm on the turntable, and it worked correctly. No listening tests were completed as there was no tonearm/tonearm board with the turntable.

Ed & I are working together to try and work forward with the NVS Design and improve where it can be.

The table in question measured 33.349 +/- .001 RPM in speed when measured with a Roadrunner tachometer. Someone had asked about this on WBF and so I was able to do this. You cannot hear this amount of speed difference per rotation.

The Phoenix Engineering measurements dealt with W&F.

There are eight revisions of the NVS produced over the past 10+ years and a lot of the documentation and measurements were lost with the passing of Jonathan.

I was on the phone with Ed and Phoenix engineering today in regard to this turntable. Ed is working to continue this incredible turntable in the marketplace and part of that process is evaluating the entire production process as well as the motor control.

This one sample has been measured and we will have a newer version of this turntable being evaluated shortly. These findings will be the property of Wave Kinetics and for Ed to be able to know where the tables were and are currently before deciding on the best course of action for future models.

Please know there are no conspiracy theories here. I do not like seeing people taking jabs at each other on forums because it only tears the community apart rather than just allowing people to enjoy the special qualities of analog playback.

Let Ed do his due diligence and work forward with this brand that has given people much enjoyment over that past decade. We need to build up domestic brands, rather than tearing them down. Ed will be able to update the website when he gains access and works through many aspects of the business that occur when a passing occurs.

I prefer to not post on forums (same as Ed) as I am in the manufacturing industry and feel our place is on websites, youtube, and not on forums that are for more mainstream consumers.

 

[Solypsa]

@ChristanG Thank you for your comments.

I for one think that manufacturer participation can be welcome on a forum if done in a spirit as you describe above; to strengthen the community.

 

[Phoenix Engineering]

Maybe a question is, how is the sound so good if the speed accuracy is not absolutely perfect. Or is it and the test is wrong.

Some people prefer the sound of SET with 0.5% distortion. What's your point? My post was not about opinions it was about facts, measurements and published specs.

Maybe I missed it, but what do we know about the methodology of the test. He measured off the encoder? What does this mean. Did he measure at the platter surface with a stand alone calibrated device?

The encoder is solidly coupled to the platter and provides feedback to the controller. It is the most reliable indication of the platter's actual motion that exists. It does not suffer from eccentricity or other defects like an LP that might adversely affect the outcome.

What if it was there to have the speed controller repaired?

It wasn't.

Isn't that the encoder?

No.

He's using numbers obtained during a test via a process and variables that might influence the outcome.

So you have no idea what an encoder is or how closed loop feedback systems work but you can make wild claims and speculate that something wasn't right. Who's agitating the members now?

What we know is he doesn't like the type motor used on the table ...

Actually, I like the motor; I use AA motors on belt drive tables, it's just the wrong choice for DD.

...and is saying during a static bench top test of that type of motor with no load attached, it will behave a certain way.

Wrong, the platter was attached (see above).

That is not how an assembly of parts ultimatly behaves.

Wrong.

Maybe the platter smooths out anomalies in the motor and provide a more precise speed.

It does, but only to a certain degree and in this case, not enough.

Maybe that topology of motor has better Torque. Maybe it has less noise or easier to mitigate noise. Maybe supports a platter better. It may have some other attributes that brings the whole of the table to a higher level when its utilized in a final assembly.

Maybe you have no clue what you are talking about and are asking a bunch of really stupid questions in an effort to agitate the members. (Personal comment removed).

ran slightly high at 1389.2Hz (+0.0224%), a long way from 1PPM.
The speed stability was quite poor actually

Comments as such open a can of worms and get people agitated at each other.

Kind of like this post by you after Christan's call for civility. Your lack of self awareness is astounding.

Maybe Phoenix owes a word to readers for somewhat misleading them on the whole of what transpired. I see a guy who lit a fire, deleted his words and ran.

Sorta like what you just did (posted, deleted, ran)?

OK, here's my message. I posted my findings after reading a completely ridiculous and over the top review that I felt was in gross error. To date, nobody has offered any evidence of misleading or false data, only speculation and conspiracy theories. My post understandably complicated the relationship between Ed and Christan and I was asked to take it down. When I obliged and asked the admins to delete the content (3x) they refused. They said they couldn't delete other poster's content because those other posters hadn't violated any TOS (fair enough) but they also refused to delete my posts at my request (3x). They did however remove an entire thread in Aug 2020 that was critical of VPI at the OP's request, including my posts and posts by dozens of other members who had not violated any TOS. Without warning or notification. Go figure. I deleted my posts in the current thread myself.

FYI: CGI is not a repair shop (they are a mfr), neither CGI nor Ed are my client (my work was done independently and at no charge) and there were no NDAs in place either implied or explicit between Ed, CGI or myself.

Mike L. spoke with Ed and receive a partial understanding of the situation. Mike then spoke with Ron who encouraged him to post an inflammatory message that IMO misrepresented the situation and started the ensuing mess. I was asked, and thought it best, to stay out of the fray as any further discussion would most likely only make things worse. With the exception of a few posters, what ensued was a embarrassing display by a bunch of adolescent chicks on the rag posing as old men. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. I'm ashamed of all you and for you. I'm also done posting on and visiting this site. I'm embarrassed to have been a member here. Please close my account.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Mike then spoke with Ron who encouraged him to post an inflammatory message

This is misleading. I merely encouraged Mike to post his understanding of the facts.

 

[PeterA]

This is misleading. I merely encouraged Mike to post his understanding of the facts.

The problem with that is that it turns out Bill had the facts about the turntable and reported them. The rest was all deflection away from the test results and speculation about motives.

What a shame to lose another expert with superior knowledge and experience. At one point this place welcomed people like Bill. I don’t blame Bill for leaving given how badly he was treated. At least we learned a few things about that turntable and more about some of the members.

Karmeli Twin #1.

 

[Ron Resnick]

At one point this place welcomed people like Bill.

WBF absolutely welcomes people like Bill. It is a falsehood to suggest that industry experts are not welcome. Bill was welcome, and is welcome.

Sometimes WBF is a hot kitchen. Anytime one interacts with the public one has to be prepared for a little heat.

 

[Kingrex]

Some people prefer the sound of SET with 0.5% distortion. What's your point? My post was not about opinions it was about facts, measurements and published specs.


The encoder is solidly coupled to the platter and provides feedback to the controller. It is the most reliable indication of the platter's actual motion that exists. It does not suffer from eccentricity or other defects like an LP that might adversely affect the outcome.


It wasn't.


No.


So you have no idea what an encoder is or how closed loop feedback systems work but you can make wild claims and speculate that something wasn't right. Who's agitating the members now?


Actually, I like the motor; I use AA motors on belt drive tables, it's just the wrong choice for DD.


Wrong, the platter was attached (see above).


Wrong.


It does, but only to a certain degree and in this case, not enough.


Maybe you have no clue what you are talking about and are asking a bunch of really stupid questions in an effort to agitate the members. (Personal comment removed).


Kind of like this post by you after Christan's call for civility. Your lack of self awareness is astounding.


Sorta like what you just did (posted, deleted, ran)?

OK, here's my message. I posted my findings after reading a completely ridiculous and over the top review that I felt was in gross error. To date, nobody has offered any evidence of misleading or false data, only speculation and conspiracy theories. My post understandably complicated the relationship between Ed and Christan and I was asked to take it down. When I obliged and asked the admins to delete the content (3x) they refused. They said they couldn't delete other poster's content because those other posters hadn't violated any TOS (fair enough) but they also refused to delete my posts at my request (3x). They did however remove an entire thread in Aug 2020 that was critical of VPI at the OP's request, including my posts and posts by dozens of other members who had not violated any TOS. Without warning or notification. Go figure. I deleted my posts in the current thread myself.

FYI: CGI is not a repair shop (they are a mfr), neither CGI nor Ed are my client (my work was done independently and at no charge) and there were no NDAs in place either implied or explicit between Ed, CGI or myself.

Mike L. spoke with Ed and receive a partial understanding of the situation. Mike then spoke with Ron who encouraged him to post an inflammatory message that IMO misrepresented the situation and started the ensuing mess. I was asked, and thought it best, to stay out of the fray as any further discussion would most likely only make things worse. With the exception of a few posters, what ensued was a embarrassing display by a bunch of adolescent chicks on the rag posing as old men. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. I'm ashamed of all you and for you. I'm also done posting on and visiting this site. I'm embarrassed to have been a member here. Please close my account.

I never said I know anything about how a TT works. I was just speculating the table is a lot better than how you presented it. More asking questions and saying there has to be more too it. Christan seemed to say your initial comments were not telling a complete story. You can read his post 128 yourself.
Happy to be a target to let you vent your frustration. But I'm not the instigator.

 

[PeterA]

WBF absolutely welcomes people like Bill. It is a falsehood to suggest that industry experts are not welcome. Bill was welcome, and is welcome.

Sometimes WBF is a hot kitchen. Anytime one interacts with the public one has to be prepared for a little heat.

I am sorry, this is ridiculous. Read the thread. He was clearly not welcome. He posted measurements of a turntable and criticized the accuracy of the specifications and motor choice for DD. Mike did not like it and the attacks began. Bill shared interesting information about the Esoteric turntable and now this NVS turntable. His reports were not welcome and he was met with resistance.

Phoenix Engineering doesn’t need this forum, but the forum was a better place with his contributions. Exactly the same as with other people who have left this year.

Karmeli Twin #1

 

[treitz3]

Okay, gentlemen. Enough.

Bill is welcome back to the forum at anytime. He did nothing wrong. We cannot control what members post and things transpired in a way that was not a desired outcome for everyone involved.

With that said, this thread will be closed until Monday to allow things cool down a little bit. When it is reopened? If gas is poured back on the fire, the thread will be permanently closed.

[EDIT: The thread will remain closed]

Tom