To terminate or not, that is the question

[Dr_jitsu]

Interesting point, Don.

Back to my selection options, it seems that this gentleman in Taiwan is also making some very high quality cable for a very fair price: http://cgi.ebay.com/Silver-Plated-O...145?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45fae7de49

I know I will exceed my budget, but this stuff seems worth it. I believe it is a replica of King cable but for a lot less money.

It will also save me from having to buy a heat gun, although I may end up doing my rear state speakers DIY.

Speaking of which, I am running Klipsch (RF-7, rc 64, and RF-82's front stage and 52&51 rear). Will getting this good a quality wiring make a difference on this level gear?

My subs are probably better than my speakers, but I have heard that subs don't really benefit from higher end wiring.

Oh and BTW, Call me Sean

 

[garylkoh]

Sidetracks are fine..... IMO bananas work better, but you have to pick the right bananas. If you look at the absolute physics of it, theoretically spades give you a larger contact surface area, but then if you look at the binding posts, a lot then have textured or ribbed surfaces where they contact the spade in the belief (correctly or wrongly) that that would result in a better contact. (Well, I definitely know that it will work for friction, but I don't know that that will work electrically). I don't like a lot of surrounding metal because I think that electrons can get sidetracked (which qualifies me for the looney bin) but then again, every one I've demo'ed removing the positive binding post nut to has heard the difference even when they don't know what I did (does that qualify for at least single-blind?)

There are trade-offs to the different types of bananas. I like the ones that look similar to the last couple above - they are basically a piece of metal that is rolled into a part of a hollow cylinder. (Nordost uses these even on their most expensive Odin cable).

However, the type of metal used and the actual construction makes a big difference. When they are made out of spring steel, the contact remains tight for years and years (I have a set of one of the first Nordost cables to use these bananas, and they are still tight after almost 20 years). If they are made of copper, which is a better conductor but less good as a spring, they loosen after a short while. The problem with these is that they need to be soldered on, and I think that crimp/weld sounds much better. But then you have to crimp/weld it correctly. But I'll also admit that I haven't listened to every available solder/flux out there, and I haven't tried the new high-frequency irons that are supposed to work better.

In the case of a DIYer, the ones with the screws like the ones from that Taiwanese seller seem to be the best compromise. I've already ordered a couple of pairs to see if they are any good.

 

[garylkoh]

Interesting point, Don.

Back to my selection options, it seems that this gentleman in Taiwan is also making some very high quality cable for a very fair price: http://cgi.ebay.com/Silver-Plated-O...145?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45fae7de49

Sean - just looking at his listing.... I don't know what gauge the cable is, but let's assume 10awg for good conductance. If it uses 5670 strands those strands would be incredibly fine. And if each strand is silver-plated on top, I don't know any wire company who would be able to make a silver-plated wire that fine. I had enough trouble getting 42awg strands (slightly less than thickness of a human hair) for my interconnects. If it's a 10awg cable with 5670 strands, that would make about 10 strands to get the thickness of human hair......

 

[DonH50]

@Gary -- Thanks, I understand your "why" though technically some of it seems fuzzy. So what else is new? I'd love to hear how your testing pans out.

@Sean -- I get very nervous about replica cables after seeing some testing showing a lot of copies looked similar but were in fact much smaller gauge (with thicker insulation). I have no idea if that is the case here. I tend to use Monoprice, Blue Jeans, etc. but I am not a real cable guy (though I shouild pull out my old Fulton Golds and hook them up...)

 

[Dr_jitsu]

Thanks guys....so I guess caveat emptor....I contacted him asking if he would build some cables for my front stage. I sniffed about the internet and there seems to be many happy w/ his products. And I do know that Taiwan has been the top of the food chain for computer chips. I take that you guys are skeptical.

Another option is to go with these from Ram, they aren't pretty but the use Canare and WTB connects, all known entities: http://www.ramelectronics.net/audio...able-with-gold-locking-bananas-hs/prodHS.html

 

[naturephoto1]

Interesting point, Don.

Back to my selection options, it seems that this gentleman in Taiwan is also making some very high quality cable for a very fair price: http://cgi.ebay.com/Silver-Plated-O...145?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45fae7de49

I know I will exceed my budget, but this stuff seems worth it. I believe it is a replica of King cable but for a lot less money.

It will also save me from having to buy a heat gun, although I may end up doing my rear state speakers DIY.

Speaking of which, I am running Klipsch (RF-7, rc 64, and RF-82's front stage and 52&51 rear). Will getting this good a quality wiring make a difference on this level gear?

My subs are probably better than my speakers, but I have heard that subs don't really benefit from higher end wiring.

Oh and BTW, Call me Sean

Sean,

Kevin's cables that you have listed are King/VALAB (vintage audio lab) cables. King is one of Kevin's "brand" names. He has also made these cables under the TimePortal name as well. Many of my cables are the TimePortal brand and some are the King brand. Kevin builds the cables from some of the best Chinese materials (many the same as the big name makers) for low cost; Taiwan and China have much lower costs and labor than in the US. The cables are quite heavy and about 3/4" thick, well constructed, and of very high quality particularly for the price. I am not sure if the cables are 8, 9, or 10 gauge, but they are thick. Shipping from Taiwan for these can be somewhat high due to the cable weight so be prepared for expense for shipping. Dave Schulte of the Upgrade Company as an example has compared these cables to much more expensive speaker cables and he thought that they sounded better than as I recall $2,000+ MIT cables. In any case, you will have to spend a fair amount of money to equal or surpass the performance of theses cables. I run very long runs of these- 9m lengths to my main speakers, 2 pair to my center channel in 8 1/2m length, 2 10m lengths to each of my side surrounds and a pair of 8m bi-wires to my rear 2 channels. Kevin also made up some IC subwoofer cables for me as well.

By the way, below are some of the photos of my speaker cables with the TimePortal brand, to the best of our knowledge the same as the King/VALAB brand. My cables have both the Banana plugs and the spades:

Rich

 

[Dr_jitsu]

Very nice, Rich. Yes, I figured out that Kevin=King, Valab (Vintage Audo lab). Thnks for the hook up.

 

[naturephoto1]

Sean - just looking at his listing.... I don't know what gauge the cable is, but let's assume 10awg for good conductance. If it uses 5670 strands those strands would be incredibly fine. And if each strand is silver-plated on top, I don't know any wire company who would be able to make a silver-plated wire that fine. I had enough trouble getting 42awg strands (slightly less than thickness of a human hair) for my interconnects. If it's a 10awg cable with 5670 strands, that would make about 10 strands to get the thickness of human hair......

Hi Gary,

I think that Kevin's cables have clusters or bundles of silver plated OFHC wire copper in each of the 4 wires; the remainder of the conductors are OFC 99.99999% copper wire.

Rich

 

[garylkoh]

Hi Gary,

I think that Kevin's cables have clusters or bundles of silver plated OFHC wire copper in each of the 4 wires; the remainder of the conductors are OFC 99.99999% copper wire.

Rich

I'm not saying that they aren't good. Just that 5670 strands of 40awg wire makes a 2awg cable....

I'm not against cheap cables, and you can and should be skeptical of me because I make and sell expensive cables. I just don't like dubious claims that do damage to all cable manufacturers.

 

[naturephoto1]

I'm not saying that they aren't good. Just that 5670 strands of 40awg wire makes a 2awg cable....

I'm not against cheap cables, and you can and should be skeptical of me because I make and sell expensive cables. I just don't like dubious claims that do damage to all cable manufacturers.

Hi Gary,

I can't say if Kevin is correct in the 5670 strands of wire. There are errors in his ads and English is not his native/primary language as can be seen in his ads and in his e-mails. But, when I indicated 4 wires I am referring to the 4 jacketed wires in each of the speaker cables (2 wires for each of the spades or Banana plugs). There are large number of fine wires in each of these jackets and the finished product is about 3/4" thick. I had one of the spades come off of one of the speaker cables and had a dickens of a time trying to get the wire back into the aperture to screw tighten to lock the spade back in place. Also, John had had an issue for trying to replace the connectors and was discussed in a thread here on the forum sometime back. John had been looking for some Pin plugs for these cables so that he could connect the speaker cables to his vintage Pioneer IA. We all struggled to find something that would fit because the wiring for each channel was so thick.

By the way, when Jonathan Weiss of OMA visited when we were auditioning his Mini horns in my system and later when he delivered my OMA New Yorker prototype speakers he was impressed by the heft and the weight and the construction of Kevin's cables. Jonathan sells Analysis Plus cables as a dealer and I believe that those are the only cables that he sells. At the time though Jonathan was stunned by the price of these cables and indicated that he would be happy to get these cables at the price.

Rich

 

[Dr_jitsu]

I sent a message to Kevin via ebay about 36 hour ago and am waiting to hear back from him.

 

[Dr_jitsu]

While on ebay, I ran across these Kimbers. Are these real or fakes? http://cgi.ebay.com/GENUINE-Kimber-...387?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c55a129d3

 

[naturephoto1]

I sent a message to Kevin via ebay about 36 hour ago and am waiting to hear back from him.

Hi Sean,

Be patient with Kevin to respond; if he doesn't respond shortly, send him another e-mail. He could be better at responding at times. He just sent me an e-mail regarding shipping of some repaired RCA ICs and a pair of XLR ICs early this morning (I received it about 2:15 AM). Also, don't forget that Taiwan is 12 hours different from eastern US.

Rich

 

[Dr_jitsu]

Thanks Rich....so has anyone taken a look at the Kimbers I posted the link to? Seller is asking $89 which to my understanding suggests that they are fake.

 

[naturephoto1]

Thanks Rich....so has anyone taken a look at the Kimbers I posted the link to? Seller is asking $89 which to my understanding suggests that they are fake.

Sean,

From what the ad indicates the cables were made from bulk Kimber cable. I can't comment beyond that and will differ to others. If it is bulk Kimber cable maybe someone can try to fill us in on the wire. I know that a lot of cable makers offer bulk cable material for some of their less expensive cables. Examples of this include cable made by Furutech.

Rich

 

[Dr_jitsu]

Hi all. I eventually went with Canare 4s11 for pretty much my whole system. For my front stage I went with WBT connects and they are an exceptional product. Ram electronics put everything together and finished it w/ some nice tech flex. For my side and rear speakers I went with some high quality Chinese connecters that still had the cold crimped WBT ferrels.

When I replaced all my wiring I found that some wiring was loose. The WBT's will hold through a hurricane. The lesson was that good connects do in fact matter.

 

[RBFC]

Hi all. I eventually went with Canare 4s11 for pretty much my whole system. For my front stage I went with WBT connects and they are an exceptional product. Ram electronics put everything together and finished it w/ some nice tech flex. For my side and rear speakers I went with some high quality Chinese connecters that still had the cold crimped WBT ferrels.

When I replaced all my wiring I found that some wiring was loose. The WBT's will hold through a hurricane. The lesson was that good connects do in fact matter.

How does it sound now?

Lee

 

[Dr_jitsu]

It is less harsh/sharp/brassy, which is the standard criticism of Klipsch (I have RF-7'/82's/rc64 up front). Nothing exotic like "improved imaging" but the system is smoother now. Ram electronics had 10% off to boot so I got everything for under $800.

 

[mullard88]

Returning to the query in post #1, I would speculate that bare wire terminations for speaker cables would be better. However, because there are hobbyists like myself have a habit of rotating speaker cables, amplifiers, and speakers, terminations in spade or bananas would be more convenient and cause less damage(s) and stray wires.

I recall a friend who settled for a certain combination of amplifier, speaker cable and speaker. He soldered his speaker cables straight into the output board of his amplifier, bypassing even the amplifier's speaker binding posts and also straight into the crossover of his speakers, bypassing his speaker's binding posts as well.

 

[c1ferrari]

Appreciate the rationale

Anyway, I am not a fan of unterminated cables. Amir mentioned corrosion, also binding post nuts can loosen after a while with all the vibration. For that reason, I prefer banana plugs at the speaker end (but I prefer spades at the amplifier end).

for spades v banana plugs, Gary
Thanks!