Problems with believability in audio

[hopkins]

For me, the problem is when elements are enhanced to create a virtual visual effect which we do not hear in the concert hall.

I am curious - how many records do you own?

 

[SoundMann]

Interesting comment. And what arm and cartridge would you pair with the zero?

It is an interesting comment that doesn't truly reflect what I am trying to say. Let me clarify it by saying that you need to start with the Zero in order to hear the very best of what vinyl is capable of. But few people will own or even hear this monumental table, so the Micro Seiki SX-8000 series is an acceptable starting point if the rest of the components are up to snuff.

As subjective as cartridge and tonearm choices may be, I prefer to narrow them down to the few that have produced the most natural synergies that I have heard so far.

Tonearms include the TechDAS Air Force 10 (the only true match for the Zero), the Graham Phantom Elite, and the current SAT series.

Note that I do find the Kuzma 4-point to be a good tonearm at its price-point as well.

Cartridges include the TechDAS TCD01 series (I prefer the original) and the Air Tight Opus.

Phonostages are also important. The Zanden Model 1200 Signature meets my requirements.

​

 

[Al M.]

... sound a little to dead/calm for my taste, almost like digital.

(Chuckle) You have a knack for entertaining comments, Milan!

 

[Al M.]

In other words you have put together a system that you can afford and pleases you sound wise. Good for you !

You have a knack for succinct, diplomatic comments, Milan.

You're on a roll today

 

[PeterA]

I am curious - how many records do you own?

About 3,000-3,500. Curious question considering the thread topic? My comment about enhancing elements to create virtual visual effects is about gear and set up. It distracts and detracts from believability

 

[PeterA]

It is an interesting comment that doesn't truly reflect what I am trying to say. Let me clarify it by saying that you need to start with the Zero in order to hear the very best of what vinyl is capable of. But few people will own or even hear this monumental table, so the Micro Seiki SX-8000 series is an acceptable starting point if the rest of the components are up to snuff.

As subjective as cartridge and tonearm choices may be, I prefer to narrow them down to the few that have produced the most natural synergies that I have heard so far.

Tonearms include the TechDAS Air Force 10 (the only true match for the Zero), the Graham Phantom Elite, and the current SAT series.

Note that I do find the Kuzma 4-point to be a good tonearm at its price-point as well.

Cartridges include the TechDAS TCD01 series (I prefer the original) and the Air Tight Opus.

Phonostages are also important. The Zanden Model 1200 Signature meets my requirements.

​

Thank you. I have not heard the AF Zero, but I do not like the AF1, having heard it in a direct comparison in a friend's system. In my opinion, it is overdamped. I used to own a mint condition Micro Seiki SX 8000II. I agree that the is an excellent table. I also share your opinion of the Air Tight Opus One cartridge. It is superb. I borrowed one from a friend for a while. I used to own the Air Tight Supreme.

 

[thedudeabides]

My system is carefully pieced together for the most realistic sound possible at its price-point.

Can you please provide specfic details of your current system or a link that provides that information. Will help with context to better understand your comments. Thanks.

 

[SoundMann]

Can you please provide specfic details of your current system or a link that provides that information. Will help with context to better understand your comments. Thanks.

My comments concern the best record playback thru true reference grade systems.

But here is the link you asked for.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/members/soundmann.20396/#about

 

[thedudeabides]

Thank you. Had the 1 + 1's at one time many years ago. Very "beamy" but a wonderful speaker nonetheless. Unfortunately and hopefully you agree, "true reference grade" can be quite subjective in this hobby. And if the gear is properly chosen in an optimized room, I don't believe that you have to spend seven figures to attain reference grade sound. Best.

 

[hopkins]

About 3,000-3,500. Curious question considering the thread topic? My comment about enhancing elements to create virtual visual effects is about gear and set up. It distracts and detracts from believability

I assume that these 3000-3500 were all recorded differently - some may be concert performances, other studio recordings, right? Do you know how each of them were recorded?

Would you say all of them are recorded in such a way that they remind you of "what you hear in concert halls"?

 

[SoundMann]

Thank you. Had the 1 + 1's at one time many years ago. Very "beamy" but a wonderful speaker nonetheless.

The Spectra series has noticeably less beaming, as well as improvements in image accuracy.

Unfortunately and hopefully you agree, "true reference grade" can be quite subjective in this hobby.

Yes. That's why I clearly stated the qualifications.

And if the gear is properly chosen in an optimized room, I don't believe that you have to spend seven figures to attain reference grade sound. Best.

Whether or not this is really true, we are speaking of the very best available here.

 

[morricab]

I suspect that you would be quite happy with one of these Viz:

In your corner :}

I would too… but a pair…

 

[tima]

I actually think that some on WBF are discussing the "problem of visual images". A few who reference live sound and go to live music events recognize that we do not hear images when listening with eyes closed. This is then not really a problem for them in their listening rooms. Scale and relative location, and a sense of presence are achievable from good recordings played back on good systems that are properly set up. Some gear and set up techniques do enhance the sense of virtual visual images to remind us of what we can actually see when attending a live concert. Some enjoy these effects and think it improves a sense of realism. I find them distracting and actually think they hinder believability because I do not actually hear these enhanced or delineated images from live music.

Yes, we agree.

I'm thinking that the having of psycho-acoustic images or visuals in our head is not something we choose to happen when it does. Those are the product of the person and the stereo which as you suggest can be augmented with certain gear, setup and room.

Personally I enjoy a recording of live acoustic music, say a symphony or a concerto where there is a sense of the venue or surrounding space -- what I call "a sense of an orchestra in a hall." In the case of a concerto I prefer a recording that offers some sense of the relative position of the soloist to the orchestra along with having a 'proper' balance of sound between them, where the soloist stands out a bit during their highlights and is not folded into the orchestra or too spotlit. I think these factors ultimately come from the recording although the person/system may hinder or reveal them.

Outlined images, or imagining one performer in relative position to another performer or bas-relief images are of less importance and are unessential to believability.

The 'singer in my room' is quixotic to me, not realistic. My room is not her venue acoustically or otherwise.

 

[morricab]

And would be sold to a few navel pickers, that mostly listen to classical music. Real world systems need to fit into modern homes without making the wife barf and be able to play the kiddies rock/ pop mp3 files without causing deafness.

If the your goal is not to create believability with live, unamplified music then all I can say is:
DO NOT BUY AN EXPENSIVE AUDIO SYSTEM.
DO NOT BUY AN EXPENSIVE AUDIO SYSTEM
DO NOT BUY AN EXPENSIVE AUDIO SYSTEM.

This alert will repeat every 30 seconds…

 

[morricab]

Yes, we agree.

I'm thinking that the having of psycho-acoustic images or visuals in our head is not something we choose to happen when it does. Those are the product of the person and the stereo which as you suggest can be augmented with certain gear, setup and room.

Personally I enjoy a recording of live acoustic music, say a symphony or a concerto where there is a sense of the venue or surrounding space -- what I call "a sense of an orchestra in a hall." In the case of a concerto I prefer a recording that offers some sense of the relative position of the soloist to the orchestra along with having a 'proper' balance of sound between them, where the soloist stands out a bit during their highlights and is not folded into the orchestra or too spotlit. I think these factors ultimately come from the recording although the person/system may hinder or reveal them.

Outlined images, or imagining one performer in relative position to another performer or bas-relief images are of less importance and are unessential to believability.

The 'singer in my room' is quixotic to me, not realistic. My room is not her venue acoustically or otherwise.

This depends on the recording and intent. A lot of “girl with guitar or electronic music” is recorded with vocals very upfront and either little or very artificial ambience or soundstage. This “being in the room” effect does enhance the believability that you are listening to a real person singing in your room.
There is a good live recording of Melody Gardot that puts you nicely in the concert hall with her as a counterpoint to the one above…her studio albums are more her in the room.

A truly good system will be a chameleon this way depending on the recording nature.

 

[andromedaaudio]

If the your goal is not to create believability with live, unamplified music then all I can say is:
DO NOT BUY AN EXPENSIVE AUDIO SYSTEM.
DO NOT BUY AN EXPENSIVE AUDIO SYSTEM
DO NOT BUY AN EXPENSIVE AUDIO SYSTEM.

This alert will repeat every 30 seconds…

No Just buy andromeda design speakers .
And spin some Keith Jarret Piano Tapes .
Even the die hard Light bulb / horn crowd said it sounded good .

The unamplified music crowd is always complaining lol.
Just accept the facts , sound reproduction isnt always perfect.

Luckily regarding normal amplified music reproduction you have the best system already designed in Egg switserland .

And for those that dont agree buy a cheap low watt Light bulb and some cheap Diy horns and praise yourself for being frontrow for next to nothing

 

[Rexp]

What a silly statement. Time to resurrect the A v D ad nauseum discussion for the 100th time? New Borgs of audio denial? That's so ridiculous and absurd, it's funny.

Did you read the article under discussion?? ADDA is one of the causes of poor believability stated by Absolute Sound's Editor, Tom Martin. Quite unusual for them to question digital so explicitly.

 

[hopkins]

Agreed, and the video representation is a joke. As is often the case.

If I were to make a video of a speaker playing music with different EQ settings do you think you would be able to tell them apart?

 

[tima]

A lot of “girl with guitar or electronic music” is recorded with vocals very upfront and either little or very artificial ambience or soundstage. This “being in the room” effect does enhance the believability that you are listening to a real person singing in your room.

a singing head

 

[bonzo75]

In other words you have put together a system that you can afford and pleases you sound wise. Good for you !

To be fair to Soundmann, he has Acoustat Spectras and Ear 834p. So he has extremely high value components. No idea about his amps, but if he has restored them poperly to drive the spectras, it will be a very smart set up, like No Regrets', capable of beating regular ultra high end at low cost (which, btw, is looing easier and easier these days to achieve).