Problems with believability in audio

[Ron Resnick]

If the goal is the closest similarity to live music then nothing outperforms the best historical systems which are the Western Electric systems in the 20s and 30s of the last century.

My impression considering all these HIGHEND shows from the beginning in Frankfurt/Kempinski up to Munich 2025 is that there is no real progress in this direction.

Since similarity to live music is so difficult to achieve highend manufacturers do focus on audiophile criteria only.

I agree with the thrust of some of this, but I think you overstate the points.

For whatever reason I find vintage horn systems to be very convincing on instruments, but not that convincing on voices. If I found vintage horn systems to be the most convincing on voices, I would have a vintage horn system.

 

[matthias]

I agree with the thrust of some of this, but I think you overstate the points.

For whatever reason I find vintage horn systems to be very convincing on instruments, but not that convincing on voices. If I found vintage horn systems to be the most convincing on voices, I would have a vintage horn system.

Not my impression, for example Maria Callas and Cantate Domino in the Silbatone room at HE Munich was as good as it gets. Voices have real power, most other systems are not able to reproduce this power.

 

[bonzo75]

For whatever reason I find vintage horn systems to be very convincing on instruments, but not that convincing on voices. If I found vintage horn systems to be the most convincing on voices, I would have a vintage horn system.

How many vintage horn systems have you heard?

Biomor you heard at David’s has no similarity in sound to WE unless you want to use natural as a broad adjective. Even WEs outside Cheung’s collection sound nowhere similar as they are usually in bad shape or replaced drivers or some DIY. Russ’ is not Altec

 

[matthias]

If I found vintage horn systems to be the most convincing on voices, I would have a vintage horn system.

Just a suggestion you could visit Tim Gurney, listen to some WE replicas and make a YT interview with him:

Western Electric Horn Systems: Time Travel with Tim Gurney

Timothy Gurney has taken it upon himself to singlehandedly recreate Western Electric horn designs from scratch. Working from his dedicated studio in France, Gurney utilizes turn-of-the-20th-century materials and period custom-fabricated tools to deliver the most authentic Western Electric...

www.resistormag.com

 

[bonzo75]

Not my impression, for example Maria Callas and Cantate Domino in the Silbatone room at HE Munich was as good as it gets. Voices have real power, most other systems are not able to reproduce this power.

I have got vocal videos with Euronor, WE, Altec, Leif's DIY TADs, and Cessaro. All were recorded in person. Both in person and on videos, horns, vintage or modern, as long as well done set up produce the best vocals, far more reaslitic than other speakers. Part of the reason is if you run something with 2 watt 45 type valves, with a maximum requirement of the 211 in Kondo Kagura, the inflection and air in horns is unbeatable. First time I noticed horns was when a small DIY TAD 2001 horn running with 45s and wondered how it was sounding so much better than electrostats (which were my vocal reference back then).

 

[hopkins]

I suspect that you would be quite happy with one of these Viz:

In your corner :}

This is an example were the frequency response seems a bit too far from neutral for me to appreciate it. It's a fine line... The example I gave has a very different sound signature - this tends to be a little "shouty".

 

[thedudeabides]

Those who are married to digital are the new Borgs of audio denial.

What a silly statement. Time to resurrect the A v D ad nauseum discussion for the 100th time? New Borgs of audio denial? That's so ridiculous and absurd, it's funny.

 

[Argonaut]

This is an example were the frequency response seems a bit too far from neutral for me to appreciate it. It's a fine line... The example I gave has a very different sound signature - this tends to be a little "shouty".

Of course … The video is merely representative , as are they all No ! … In ones room Hartsfield’s are tonally and texturally rich and full bodied whilst harmonically satisfying with more than enough detail retrieval from the grooves and I found a singular and then a pair immensely rewarding on Jazz , Crooner , Big Band, etcetera .

 

[Al M.]

Of course … The video is merely representative , as are they all No ! … In ones room Hartsfield’s are tonally and texturally rich and full bodied whilst harmonically satisfying with more than enough detail retrieval from the grooves and I found a singular and then a pair immensely rewarding on Jazz , Crooner , Big Band, etcetera .

Agreed, and the video representation is a joke. As is often the case.

 

[bonzo75]

Just a suggestion you could visit Tim Gurney, listen to some WE replicas and make a YT interview with him:

Western Electric Horn Systems: Time Travel with Tim Gurney

Timothy Gurney has taken it upon himself to singlehandedly recreate Western Electric horn designs from scratch. Working from his dedicated studio in France, Gurney utilizes turn-of-the-20th-century materials and period custom-fabricated tools to deliver the most authentic Western Electric...

www.resistormag.com

I have visited Tim, as has Leif

 

[matthias]

I have visited Tim, as has Leif

Can you share some impressions?
Thx

 

[PeterA]

There is a new think piece in "The Absolute Sound" that discusses what the author views as the 6 major problems in getting what he refers to as "believable" audio.



Problem 3, the problem of spatial imaging to me is probably more problematic than most would like to admit. Without knowing what the real event sounded like (or if in fact there was a real soundstage and not just manufactured in the studio) I think it is less critical that it is accurate than if it just seems palpable and believable (like the sax player or vibe player is there in the room with you in 3d ). Where most systems struggle here is in terms of image density and 3 dimensionality. Do they have volume like real musicians in a room would have? Most systems paint a rather flat caricature of this, even if they place them well in a deep/wide soundstage. After just coming back from Munich, most systems, regardless of cost, fail to convince that the images are living, breathing musicians.

Great thread Brad. Thank you for posting the link and starting the discussion.

He writes:

"The problem of visual images can be described as a key difference between concerts and music at home. With a concert, there is a visual presentation happening that is generally missing in the home environment. There are questions about why and whether this is important, but in most of the audio world it goes undiscussed and unaddressed, particularly when the focus is on music with high quality recording.

...

The problem of spatial imaging is simply one of presenting performers in a way that makes them distinct and believably present in a believable space. This does not seem to be a problem of stereo per se, but a problem of psychoacoustics and a problem of execution vis a vis emerging psychoacoustic knowledge. It may be easier or harder to address this issue by going outside the standard stereo architecture, but empirically this is not even close to obvious, in fact quite the contrary."


I actually think that some on WBF are discussing the "problem of visual images". A few who reference live sound and go to live music events recognize that we do not hear images when listening with eyes closed. This is then not really a problem for them in their listening rooms. Scale and relative location, and a sense of presence are achievable from good recordings played back on good systems that are properly set up. Some gear and set up techniques do enhance the sense of virtual visual images to remind us of what we can actually see when attending a live concert. Some enjoy these effects and think it improves a sense of realism. I find them distracting and actually think they hinder believability because I do not actually hear these enhanced or delineated images from live music.

I am also not sure the industry focusing on ever decreasing distortion has resulted in progress in terms of believability. I agree with the earlier poster who referenced early WE speaker systems who questions how much real progress has there been in the last many decades in terms of believability. The sound of our systems has surely changed, but is it really that much more believable? I am not so sure.

 

[bonzo75]

Can you share some impressions?
Thx

Tim can change his speakers a lot, the type of WE model, the drivers in it. When I went it wasn’t that impressive in 2015 but Leif went a couple or so years ago and was quite impressed. I have heard other WE replicas as well.

Keep in mind Cheung is hoarding most of the best pieces of WE still in existence, and at Munich he sometimes combines two speakers for each channel (definitely did that in 2014 and 2019), adds tweeter, runs it through expensive Silbatone electronics, and has JC and others in his crew in a massive theater room.

JC himself advised me to look at DIYs like Altecs, and Joe Roberts had Altecs for decades. Hiraga has a WE replica and Altec.

With all these vintages you need to find the right speaker maker to combine the right drivers in the right cabinet with the right crossover (requires modifications) unless you have the money to make Cheung an offer he cannot refuse

 

[sbo6]

Hearing a direct to disc record thru a true reference analog setup may change your mind.

Nope, I have D2D recordings and see my signature.

 

[Lagonda]

Yes, one's goals, which is why I said 'for those who are into believability'. And yes, the memory of live music is what we have to work with -- which implies a memory built across time based on familiarity with live acoustic music -- attending concerts or playing an instrument.

I suppose there could be memory of live synthetic music. Kraftwerk concerts, etc. Theremins. So much contemporary music -- what you hear a lot of at shows -- is composed with a keyboard and played with a synthesizer and a drum machine ... maybe your cousin's sister singing in a booth. ;-)

Go see a Van Morrison concert !

 

[andromedaaudio]

When i was at the Iron Maiden concert i asked Bruce Dickenson if he could do it unamplified lol
He said not possible in a football stadium

 

[Lagonda]

Agree completely

If the goal is the closest similarity to live music then nothing outperforms the best historical systems which are the Western Electric systems in the 20s and 30s of the last century.

My impression considering all these HIGHEND shows from the beginning in Frankfurt/Kempinski up to Munich 2025 is that there is no real progress in this direction.

Since similarity to live music is so difficult to achieve highend manufacturers do focus on audiophile criteria only.

I agree also that only high sensitivity loudspeakers are the way to go but I think these should have minimum 100dB sensitivity. For such speakers are amps with maybe 50VA enough for delivering great musicality.

To create a modern day Western Electric system with the same virtues will be a great achievement.

And would be sold to a few navel pickers, that mostly listen to classical music. Real world systems need to fit into modern homes without making the wife barf and be able to play the kiddies rock/ pop mp3 files without causing deafness.

 

[bonzo75]

And would be sold to a few navel pickers, that mostly listen to classical music. Real world systems need to fit into modern homes without making the wife barf and be able to play the kiddies rock/ pop mp3 files without causing deafness.

It plays all music great, but the one in Munich is not for real rooms it is for big rooms. Some WEs can be made for smaller rooms, but replicas are not as good. Even a stand amount that WE had was excellent, but only 4 pieces made so was costing loads just to be a collector

 

[PeterA]

Focusing on #1: "The problem of visual images can be described as a key difference between concerts and music at home. With a concert, there is a visual presentation happening that is generally missing in the home environment. There are questions about why and whether this is important, but in most of the audio world it goes undiscussed and unaddressed, particularly when the focus is on music with high quality recording." Tom Martin blog.

How is this a "problem"? IMO this falls outside the expectation and experience with 2 channel listening. It's like highlighting the problem of depth looking at a smiley face on a sheet of paper.

The issue is believability. No one thinks emoji is believable. It’s just a cartoon representation of an emotion. Some music listeners strive to make their audio systems sound believable.

I happen to agree that the fact that we don’t see musicians in our living rooms is not a problem. For me, the problem is when elements are enhanced to create a virtual visual effect which we do not hear in the concert hall.

 

[PeterA]

Am I the only audiophile whose sole sonic criteria when evaluating two components with vocals is: Does it sound more like or does it sound less like a live person is singing to me?

Of course not. We just describe the criteria differently. I ask myself one question. Does it sound more natural?