Natural Sound

[microstrip]

No sound is close to live music/sound, no tube amplifier sounds like live music and no solidstate amplifier sounds like live music, no digital sounds like live music and no analag turntable sounds like live music, all audio systems have their own sound .

Just say no stereo. The intrinsic limitation is the system, not the gear. The information captured in a stereo recording is not able to fill our rooms with a facsimile of a live experience.

Music listening experience is also not related to live music, the sound of live music many times is not engaging.

We could say that many times sound reproduction is not engaging ...

The important key is which audio systems can change our mind/body after listening to music, actually the key is our emotional reaction to music not our reaction to sound and comparing the sound with live music or …

It is why it is important to find what creates such emotions. And some people do not compare sound reproduction with life sound for fun, they use it as a tool to perfect their systems according to their preferences. Probably not to your or mine preferences.

I think both Vladimir Lamm and David @ddk opinion about better sound is very very good idea, I do not describe what “Natural Sound” means or I do not compare Natural sound vs live sound.
The important thing is what David @ddk thinks is right and trusted.

Unfortunately, as far as I know, the Lamm "natural sound " concept was buried with its creator. Vladimir Lamm never documented his models, all we have are a few interviews used mainly for marketing.

David in an expert is system assembly and tuning with strong opinions. As far as I remember he never addressed real music.

 

[Amir]

Amir, in this case enjoyment or not enjoyment of live music is not really the point. This just obfuscates the issue about how realistic can the sound be.

I guess it depends on the value you place on getting closer to live sound because for enjoyment, I agree that can be had with extremely modest playback.

Brad,

this is your question : “How realistic can the sound be?”

My answer: this is not my question because I believe the relation of “more realistic sound” and music experience” are two different subjects”.
I think about my reaction to music not my reaction to the sound.

I share my answer to your question :
I can say we are humans (non-linear hearing system and super complex brain) so any answer to your question will be in “subjective domain” not “objective domain” so you will get different answers. Kedar, Peter, Tima, … will say analog/tube/horns are more realistic sound and Microstrip will say digital/solidstate/cone are more realistic sound. This subjective debate never ends.



I say more realistic sound gives you more contrast between records. (Comparison by contrast method)

Are You On The Road To... Audio Hell? Article By Leonard Norwitz And Peter Qvortrup

Are You On The Road To... Audio Hell? Article By Leonard Norwitz And Peter Qvortrup

www.enjoythemusic.com

 

[Amir]

Just say no stereo. The intrinsic limitation is the system, not the gear. The information captured in a stereo recording is not able to fill our rooms with a facsimile of a live experience.

I read about stereo crosstalk cancellation and also multichannel systems like Auro 3D sound. I do not have valid experience in this regard but I guess those can give better 3D feeling and can not reproduce full dynamic range of live performance. The speaker technology and also other technology limits do not allow to get full dynamics of live performance.

Unfortunately, as far as I know, the Lamm "natural sound " concept was buried with its creator. Vladimir Lamm never documented his models, all we have are a few interviews used mainly for marketing.

David in an expert is system assembly and tuning with strong opinions. As far as I remember he never addressed real music.

I do not care if “Natural sound” was marketing hype or not, what I think is David @ddk idea about better sound is very good idea. I trust David @ddk so I ask my questions from him when I do not know about a component.

 

[morricab]

Brad,

this is your question : “How realistic can the sound be?”

My answer: this is not my question because I believe the relation of “more realistic sound” and music experience” are two different subjects”.
I think about my reaction to music not my reaction to the sound.

I share my answer to your question :
I can say we are humans (non-linear hearing system and super complex brain) so any answer to your question will be in “subjective domain” not “objective domain” so you will get different answers. Kedar, Peter, Tima, … will say analog/tube/horns are more realistic sound and Microstrip will say digital/solidstate/cone are more realistic sound. This subjective debate never ends.



I say more realistic sound gives you more contrast between records. (Comparison by contrast method)

Are You On The Road To... Audio Hell? Article By Leonard Norwitz And Peter Qvortrup

Are You On The Road To... Audio Hell? Article By Leonard Norwitz And Peter Qvortrup

www.enjoythemusic.com

There are flaws in the compare by contrast method. Plenty of highly analytical and unmusical systems can give you huge contrast between recordings…that doesn’t mean any of it is correct, just differentiated. Many audiophiles mistake differentiation for correct sound.
By contrast (pun intended), a low differentiating system can still sound very pleasant and emotional (my wife can still cry from music coming out of her JBL pill). I know what Peter Q’s intentions are with this method but it is possible to throw the baby out with the bath water using it.

 

[Amir]

There are flaws in the compare by contrast method. Plenty of highly analytical and unmusical systems can give you huge contrast between recordings…that doesn’t mean any of it is correct, just differentiated. Many audiophiles mistake differentiation for correct sound. By contrast (pun intended), a low differentiating system can still sound very pleasant and emotional (my wife can still cry from music coming out of her JBL pill). I know what Peter Q’s intentions are with this method but it is possible to throw the baby out with the bath water using it.

Brad, I disagree with you, if you use comparison by contrast method you will find her JBL shows more contrast than many expensive modern sharp speakers, I guess you never used this method because this method shows small budget price 2way paper cone speakers like Living Voice and Audio Note UK AN-E shows more contrast between records than even 3way big gryphon trident speakers. If your wife still cry when JBL play music it means JBL shows more contrast specially in micro dynamics. Sharpness is different to contrast.

There are also high performance modern digital solidstate systems that shows good contrast between records but it does not mean those systems are highly analytical and unmusical systems. I think over 90% of highly analytical and unmusical sound comes from wrong speaker placement and poor ac power quality and poor grounding installation.

This subjective comparison by contrast method is very good idea for comparing audio equipments.

 

[PeterA]

I also thanks Ralph @Atmasphere for sharing his electronic information in this forum

Yes. He claims his target is natural sound. He could start his own system thread and share with us how his choices for balanced technology and his gear and set up methods achieve his lifelong goal. That would be fascinating. Lamm designs are an alternative approach, and they sound different.

 

[PeterA]

Is anyone here trying to achieve “unnatural sound” ?

Great question. Insight can be gleaned from some of the responses in the thread I started asking others the differences they hear between vinyl and digital.

There are also the comments from others who tell us that live music is NOT their reference or even that reprodroced music is “nothing like” live music.

 

[jeff1225]

SET amps, vintage horn speakers, and vintage turntables are a specific approach to playback Pioneered by Japanese audiophiles. DDK took this approach and married it with LAMM’s designs. I have also taken this approach but I’m not using Lamm.

These systems are not typical audiophile systems. They do not image nor do they have extreme detail. But, when you see a live orchestra, there is not imaging or extreme detail.

 

[microstrip]

Yes. He claims his target is natural sound. He should start his own system thread and share with us how his choices for balanced technology and his gear and set up methods achieve his lifelong goal. That would be fascinating. Lamm designs are an alternative approach.

IMO once you entitled your thread as "Natural Sound" you opened it to any one wanting to post on "natural sound" in general. It is the price to pay for an attractive tittle.

Although I am not a supporter of the "comparison by contrast method" for system or gear evaluation, I recognize that many times debate by contrast is extremely interesting and enlightening, creating some of the best threads in this forum.

 

[Al M.]

IMO once you entitled your thread as "Natural Sound" you opened it to any one wanting to post on "natural sound" in general. It is the price to pay for an attractive tittle.

Agreed. There is little reason to complain about all kinds of input when a thread has such a title.

 

[PeterA]

Music listening experience is also not related to live music…

Amir, How can they be when the former is actually based on a recording of the latter? Perhaps I do not understand what you were trying to say here.

 

[jeff1225]

Amir, How can they be when the former is actually based on a recording of the latter? Perhaps I do not understand what you were trying to say here.

He’s making the statement that audio systems and live music are different. I agree 100%, there is no system and can capture the scale of Bruckner at Walt Disney Hall.

 

[Amir]

Yes. He claims his target is natural sound. He should start his own system thread and share with us how his choices for balanced technology and his gear and set up methods achieve his lifelong goal. That would be fascinating. Lamm designs are an alternative approach.

I think his target is not equal to your target. I believe balanced systems are less natural than un-balanced systems like Lamm. I am interested in Ralph information about AES48 and also his knowledge about electronics.

 

[PeterA]

Kedar, Peter, Tima, … will say analog/tube/horns are more realistic sound and Microstrip will say digital/solidstate/cone are more realistic sound. This subjective debate never ends.

Amir, I can’t speak for Kedar or Tim, but I never wrote that analog tube horns is more realistic sound. What I wrote, and what this entire thread is about, is that my current system, and DDK’s systems, sound more natural than my former system, and others I have heard. One of his speakers is cones and he has digital and not just SET. Natural sound is a reference to a specific approach and set up, not typology.

 

[Amir]

Amir, How can they be when the former is actually based on a recording of the latter? Perhaps I do not understand what you were trying to say here.

Dear Peter, Yes the records based on a live music but many parameters change the sound in the chain from microphone up to your room so I think no need to focus on the sound and it is better to check our reaction to music.
If you remember my audio critic topic I said my method has two steps :
Step one: check the sound by comparison by contrast method and if the new component increases the contrast you can go to step two if not you should forget new component.

Step two: forget the sound and listen to music then check your soul reaction to music, if you enjoy more then it is time to buy new compoment but if you do not enjoy more you should forget the new compoment.

Let me share my story when I was 20 years old and fall in love with a girl. Those days I remember I had a mobile phone Siemens SL45 when I was young, you know the love and passion is at highest level in young days so I remember MP3 files played in Siemens SL45 was the best musical experience I had in my life. I know the sound quality of MP3 in Siemens SL45 is poor but I really enjoyed those days. I never fall in love with any other girls like the first one after those young moments even I find more interesting girls. I mean more love is not related to more beautiful girls or other parameters, love is related to my soul , the relation of high end sound and enjoying music is like relation of girls beauty and love.

I believe high end sound is not about music and better sound is not my paradise, actally the end of high end is not paradise, High end is just a hobby and the real paradise is music. Natural sound is a good idea about better sound but it is not my paradise.

Only music is the way to feel paradise even if you have poor stereo.

My english is not good, I hope you get my point

 

[hopkins]

There are also the comments from others who tell us that live music is NOT their reference or even that reproduced music is “nothing like” live music.

I could see how one could make these two statements and still have a preference for systems that offer “natural sound”.

Concerning the first point, I don’t really see how anyone could seriously claim that a system should not strive to offer a realistic reproduction of a voice or any musical instrument. So I assume that when they claim that live music is not a reference they are talking about the difference between attending a live event versus listening to a recording - regardless of the system (even if the system is always in the equation).

The second point can be made irrespective of one’s preferences/audio “philosophy”. Practically everyone will agree that there is a significant difference between live and reproduced music.

 

[PeterA]

SET amps, vintage horn speakers, and vintage turntables are a specific approach to playback Pioneered by Japanese audiophiles. DDK took this approach and married it with LAMM’s designs. I have also taken this approach but I’m not using Lamm.

These systems are not typical audiophile systems. They do not image nor do they have extreme detail. But, when you see a live orchestra, there is not imaging or extreme detail.

Nice post, Jeff. I agree with your assessment of live music with the caveat of what you mean by extreme detail. I characterized live music, primarily as clarity and energy. I do not hear a microscopic view of the instruments like I do with close mic’d recordings played on some systems when listening to live or orchestra or jazz or chamber. I hear clarity and energy. But nothing like pinpoint imaging and extreme detail.

 

[PeterA]

Agreed. There is little reason to complain about all kinds of input when a thread has such a title.

Al, Do you think such a thread title is an invitation for manufacturers to come onto someone’s system thread and describe deficiencies about gear choices made by the author and then present alternatives that their designs seem to solve?

Would you have wanted a dealer or manufacturer of floorstanding speakers to go onto your mini monitor thread, saying scrap the mini monitors and get full range speakers? Do you think a turntable manufacturer should go onto your system thread and tell you that vinyl would solve your bright system coloration? Do you not think that Ralph’s business would be better served if he started his own thread describing how his system and products are a better way of achieving what he defines as natural sound? That would be much more targeted for the general audience of his products then to go on someone’s system thread. Or do you not see that?