Natural Sound

[gleeds]

I find that Ralph's posts are always informative and draw on his extensive background as a respected amplifier designer. I myself have never seen him promoting his brand. That is something I do as a long-term sponsor of the Forum. As for SET amplifiers, I am a big fan of the genre, so much so that I represent Trafomatic Audio, a brand well regarded for producing some of the finest ST amplifiers in the industry, and with certain loudspeaker types, I can see where bi-amplification with SET and non-SET amplifiers may be able to get one closer to the music "naturally".

I do enjoy this thread and hope to continue to learn from it as we get deeper into horn and SET amplification

 

[microstrip]

Yes. That is right. Magic was never claimed. Actually it was Vladimir Lamm who told David about natural sound when David asked him what the ML2 amplifier was doing. Then this became David’s approach for a particular type of presentation, one that referenced the live music listening experience.

Vladimir Lamm called "natural" a type of amplified sound that followed a particular type of hearing mechanism of the human ear that he had studied and developed. In many of his interviews I have read he never addressed using live music as a reference.

Using real musics as a reference for gear evaluation was a concept presented by Harry Pearson of TheAbsoluteSound almost 20 years before Lamm was founded. It had very some positive aspects - freeing audiophiles from the ultra-objective-just-measurements dictatorship of the 60's and early 70's audio magazines and launching the basis for subjective evaluation, but also a negative effect - launching audiophiles in a never ending search of changes, blindly following their master. Fortunately most of his readers could go beyond the gear reviews and understand his concepts, including the ability to express sound matters in words in a consistent way.

Fortunately you stabilized and are an happy audiophile under DDK strong guidance - thank him, not the real concerts you attempted.

 

[PeterA]

Vladimir Lamm called "natural" a type of amplified sound that followed a particular type of hearing mechanism of the human ear that he had studied and developed. In many of his interviews I have read he never addressed using live music as a reference.

Using real musics as a reference for gear evaluation was a concept presented by Harry Pearson of TheAbsoluteSound almost 20 years before Lamm was founded. It had very some positive aspects - freeing audiophiles from the ultra-objective-just-measurements dictatorship of the 60's and early 70's audio magazines and launching the basis for subjective evaluation, but also a negative effect - launching audiophiles in a never ending search of changes, blindly following their master. Fortunately most of his readers could go beyond the gear reviews and understand his concepts, including the ability to express sound matters in words in a consistent way.

Fortunately you stabilized and are an happy audiophile under DDK strong guidance - thank him, not the real concerts you attempted.

I think you misunderstand what I wrote:

“Yes. That is right. Magic was never claimed. Actually it was Vladimir Lamm who told David about natural sound when David asked him what the ML2 amplifier was doing. Then this became David’s approach for a particular type of presentation, one that referenced the live music listening experience.”

Vladimir Lamm introduced David Karmeli to the expression “natural sound”. David then formed an approach to a particular type of sound which he referred to as natural sound and David, not Vladimir, referenced the live music listening experience for the whole system design and set up resulting in the presentation at the listening seat and throughout the room. Vladimir Lamm did not reference live music as far as I know, but I never had the fortune of meeting him to discuss it.

I have thanked David and I was fortunate to meet him. I am blessed to know him and call him my friend. I don’t think you understand the process I went through with David. I described it in my sublime sound system thread with my old system. That was mostly set up advances.

I had heard quite a few horn speakers and a tube amplifiers, including Ralph’s atmosphere products, before I met David in Utah. I remained unimpressed. The exposure was not sufficient, and I had to hear more examples. I also knew what live music sounds like. That is exactly why I knew that David’s approach was right for me after I heard it.

It was not until I heard David’s various systems that I knew how to get to my target. The presentation of his various systems was simply much more convincing than the systems I heard before. David exposed me to a better experience, one that was much closer to the live music listening experience. Of course, I knew what that was because of my concert attendance. I just had not heard it from audio systems before. Yes David has guided me, but I knew the target before meeting him. I just did not know how to get there before.

 

[microstrip]

I think you misunderstand what I wrote:

“Yes. That is right. Magic was never claimed. Actually it was Vladimir Lamm who told David about natural sound when David asked him what the ML2 amplifier was doing. Then this became David’s approach for a particular type of presentation, one that referenced the live music listening experience.”

No, I understood it perfectly - it is why I clarified it - again Vladimir Lamm "natural sound" should not be confused with " referenced the live music listening experience" . Your evolution was confusing.

I quote you in a past post about "natural sound":
"The way I use the term in my system thread, and to describe the experience of listening to systems that sound natural to me, is to say that they represent the experience of listening to live music."

Vladimir Lamm introduced David Karmeli to the expression “natural sound”. David then formed an approach to a particular type of sound which she referred to as natural sound and David, not Vladimir, referenced the live music listening experience for the whole system design and set up. Vladimir Lamm did not reference live music as a reference as far as I know, but I never had the fortune of meeting him.

I have thanked David and I was fortunate to meet him. I don’t think you understand the process I went through. I described it in my sublime sound system thread with my old system. That was mostly set up advances. I had heard quite a few horn speakers and a tube amplifiers, including Ralph’s atmosphere products. I remained unimpressed. The exposure was not sufficient, and I had to hear more examples. And I knew what live music sounds like. But it’s exactly why I knew that it was right after I heard it.

It was not until I heard David’s various systems that I knew my direction. The presentation of his various systems was simply much more convincing. David exposed me to a better experience, one that was much closer to the live music, listening experience.

Thanks for confirming and detailing what I said.

Of course, I knew what that was because of my concert attendance. I just had not heard it from audio systems before. Yes David has guided me, but I knew the target. I just did not know how to get there before.

Can we conclude that people who do not go to concerts can't appreciate Lamm "natural sound" conveniently?

 

[jeff1225]

Many times threads suffer deviations from their original message that can lead to interesting discussions within that same thread, I think Atmasphere was contributing his ideas on natural sound in an acceptable manner and found them interesting. Curtailing valid discussion (even politely) is against the nature of any forum since it discourages participation, I regret Ralph leaving the thread and it´s unfortunate that you and others have shown him the exit door.

I just stated the obvious. This is not a thread about the way to achieve “natural sound,” it’s Peter’s system thread. Ralph and anyone with a brain knows that.

I’m a huge fan of Ralph and have happily owned his amps. He is one of the best contributors to this website, I haven’t shown him the door.

I just going to laugh at your comment and move on.

 

[tima]

This is not a thread about the way to achieve “natural sound,” it’s Peter’s system thread.

Yes, that is important to understanding some of the reactions here.

Peter labeled his system thread 'Natural Sound'. Think of that as a proper name rather than as a set of instructions or prescriptions. (In their failure to grasp that distinction several were confused or offended by his title,) He laid out what he believes that characterization means and how he went about achieving his personal goals. This is not a generic thread about what some might believe are prerequisites for natural sound (eg.wire topology) it is, imo, about where Peter is coming from out of the Lamm ÷ @ddk approach.

As another means to fulfill their mission in a positive way rather than correcting others, one could create a thread "Why balanced cables are necessary for natural sound. Or "Why SET amps alone cannot deliver natural sound."

 

[hopkins]

Yes, that is important to understanding some of the reactions here.

Peter labeled his system thread 'Natural Sound'. Think of that as a proper name rather than as a set of instructions or prescriptions. (In their failure to grasp that distinction several were confused or offended by his title,) He laid out what he believes that characterization means and how he went about achieving his personal goals. This is not a generic thread about what some might believe are prerequisites for natural sound (eg.wire topology) it is, imo, about where Peter is coming from out of the Lamm ÷ @ddk approach.

As another means to fulfill their mission in a positive way rather than correcting others, one could create a thread "Why balanced cables are necessary for natural sound. Or "Why SET amps alone cannot deliver natural sound."

Is anyone here trying to achieve “unnatural sound” ?

 

[tima]

No, I understood it perfectly - it is why I clarified it - again Vladimir Lamm "natural sound" should not be confused with " referenced the live music listening experience" . Your evolution was confusing.

I quoted Vladimir Lamm in my M1.2 review:

"It is important . . to know how the real orchestra sounds. We choose a reference point based on live music and compare to this point," then, once so prepared, "the problem of sound-quality assessment is almost completely solved in the first 10-15 seconds of listening at the intuitive level."

 

[Amir]

No, I understood it perfectly - it is why I clarified it - again Vladimir Lamm "natural sound" should not be confused with " referenced the live music listening experience" . Your evolution was confusing.

No sound is close to live music/sound, no tube amplifier sounds like live music and no solidstate amplifier sounds like live music, no digital sounds like live music and no analag turntable sounds like live music, all audio systems have their own sound .

Music listening experience is also not related to live music, the sound of live music many times is not engaging.

The important key is which audio systems can change our mind/body after listening to music, actually the key is our emotional reaction to music not our reaction to sound and comparing the sound with live music or …

I think both Vladimir Lamm and David @ddk opinion about better sound is very very good idea, I do not describe what “Natural Sound” means or I do not compare Natural sound vs live sound.
The important thing is what David @ddk thinks is right and trusted.

 

[Amir]

I also thanks Ralph @Atmasphere for sharing his electronic information in this forum

 

[tima]

Music listening experience is also not related to live music, the sound of live music many times is not engaging.

Perhaps for you Amir. I understand that reproduction is not reality but for me they are not disassociated.

I enjoy the concert hall experience and I'm selective about what music and performances I choose to attend. When I assess a system I am selective about the records I play and use the sound of real instruments as a guide moreso than my random immagination or emotions of the moment. When a stereo evokes the concert hall experience I find that more enjoyable, not less.

 

[morricab]

No sound is close to live music/sound, no tube amplifier sounds like live music and no solidstate amplifier sounds like live music, no digital sounds like live music and no analag turntable sounds like live music, all audio systems have their own sound .

Music listening experience is also not related to live music, the sound of live music many times is not engaging.

The important key is which audio systems can change our mind/body after listening to music, actually the key is our emotional reaction to music not our reaction to sound and comparing the sound with live music or …

I think both Vladimir Lamm and David @ddk opinion about better sound is very very good idea, I do not describe what “Natural Sound” means or I do not compare Natural sound vs live sound.
The important thing is what David @ddk thinks is right and trusted.

Sorry Amir, I have to disagree with you that a high degree of realism is possible from recorded music. Will it convince you wholly that you are listening to a real live performance in your room? Probably not, although for some smaller ensembles (classical or jazz) that are very well recorded, the sound can indeed sound a lot like a performance in your room...just minus actual physical people being there.

I do think this is limited to smaller ensembles and of those recordings only the very best will 'transport' you either to that venue or bring them there in the room with you (it really depends how much natural ambience is on the recording or whether that recording is very dry or not).

I think also you should not judge whether the live moves you or not, we have all been to performances that were substandard or the sound in the venue was poor (not very common for classical concerts in good halls). Live sounds like live and you don't mistake it hardly ever for playback. If you do, then either the system was VERY convincing or there is need to work on the powers of discrimination.

 

[bonzo75]

Music listening experience is also not related to live music, the sound of live music many times is not engaging.

Better to sit at home on a sofa and let the orchestra in our stomach play. More relief.

 

[Amir]

Perhaps for you Amir. I understand that reproduction is not reality but for me they are not disassociated.

I enjoy the concert hall experience and I'm selective about what music and performances I choose to attend. When I assess a system I am selective about the records I play and use the sound of real instruments as a guide moreso than my random immagination or emotions of the moment. When a stereo evokes the concert hall experience I find that more enjoyable, not less.

Do you enjoy the concert hall experience every time even if the violin players not play good?

I enjoy the convert hall experience like you but not all the time, sometimes the performance is not good. If I say I did not enjoy the concert hall experience it does not mean I love cable colorations or non-natural speaker drivers sound…

I never felt analog/tube/papers/horns sound like live music, I always said the analog/tube/paper/horns (Natural sound by @ddk) can give me more music emotion after listeing experience.

finally I do not believe in high end audio because I think enjoying music is not related to high end audio, I enjoy music when I listen to my crap car stereo or $5 airpods. Tube vs SS debates , natural sound vs un-natural sound debates all are not related to music, music is there and you can enjoy it without any high end audio.

 

[Amir]

Sorry Amir, I have to disagree with you that a high degree of realism is possible from recorded music. Will it convince you wholly that you are listening to a real live performance in your room? Probably not, although for some smaller ensembles (classical or jazz) that are very well recorded, the sound can indeed sound a lot like a performance in your room...just minus actual physical people being there.

I do think this is limited to smaller ensembles and of those recordings only the very best will 'transport' you either to that venue or bring them there in the room with you (it really depends how much natural ambience is on the recording or whether that recording is very dry or not).

I think also you should not judge whether the live moves you or not, we have all been to performances that were substandard or the sound in the venue was poor (not very common for classical concerts in good halls). Live sounds like live and you don't mistake it hardly ever for playback. If you do, then either the system was VERY convincing or there is need to work on the powers of discrimination.

Thank you Brad,

I was instrument player, finally I never convinced the live music is very close to recorded music, when you play instrument in your room the dynamic range and micro dynamics of live music is different to records. I agree with you some records are more close to live but I finally those are two different worlds.

 

[Amir]

Better to sit at home on a sofa and let the orchestra in our stomach play. More relief.

Kedar, forget high end audio and try Asics Metaspeed Tokyo Edge, this version of Metaspeed is very good for marathon runners.

 

[bonzo75]

Kedar, forget high end audio and try Asics Metaspeed Tokyo Edge, this version of Metaspeed is very good for marathon runners.

Ok, I tried the previous metaspeed, haven't tried the new one.

 

[morricab]

Thank you Brad,

I was instrument player, finally I never convinced the live music is very close to recorded music, when you play instrument in your room the dynamic range and micro dynamics of live music is different to records. I agree with you some records are more close to live but I finally those are two different worlds.

I guess we will agree to disagree. Many years ago, I was with my ex, who is a top level violinist, and I recorded her in various venues, including in my apartment. I heard first hand the incredible power of a Stradivarius violin as compared to other top violins (Amati, Guarneri and Guadagnini). I also know that such an instrument can be captured quite realistically. So, while there is clearly still a gap, one can at least approach (good) live sound as the ideal to strive for and the best systems I have ever heard were all oriented for this as a Platonic goal.

 

[microstrip]

Perhaps for you Amir. I understand that reproduction is not reality but for me they are not disassociated.

I enjoy the concert hall experience and I'm selective about what music and performances I choose to attend. When I assess a system I am selective about the records I play and use the sound of real instruments as a guide moreso than my random immagination or emotions of the moment. When a stereo evokes the concert hall experience I find that more enjoyable, not less.

Surely. But it is a personal, individual choice that feeds our private preferences. Some of us select a few aspects of real music and look for it in sound reproduction, enjoying it more when we find them. I am sometimes guilty of such sin.

Musicians and classical music experts or lovers are in generally considered poor choices for general evaluation of sound reproduction. It is why it is extremely important to know in detail about the reviewer preferences when reading a review - something that it is systematically absent in video "pseudo-reviews". Good magazines and sites allow us to find it easily.

Although the high end is an individualistic hobby, manufacturers must consider group preferences - it is what feeds them. There are no absolutes winners - the famous best - in the high-end and marketing can't operate miracles. My favorite Nelson Pass quotes:

If you are concerned that your power amplifier (or anything else for that matter)
is as objectively and technically accurate as possible,
that is a perfectly legitimate criterion. You will certainly find many
products in the marketplace that excel at conventional objective
performance, and most of them are much cheaper.
Our real customers care most about the experience they get when
they sit down to listen to their music. We create amplifiers that we
like to listen to, on the assumption that we share similar taste. "

"In the end, the subjective experience is what our customer is looking for. Our taste in sound may not appeal to everyone, but it's what we have to work with, and we only need a small segment of the market to be successful. "

 

[morricab]

Do you enjoy the concert hall experience every time even if the violin players not play good?

I enjoy the convert hall experience like you but not all the time, sometimes the performance is not good. If I say I did not enjoy the concert hall experience it does not mean I love cable colorations or non-natural speaker drivers sound…

I never felt analog/tube/papers/horns sound like live music, I always said the analog/tube/paper/horns (Natural sound by @ddk) can give me more music emotion after listeing experience.

finally I do not believe in high end audio because I think enjoying music is not related to high end audio, I enjoy music when I listen to my crap car stereo or $5 airpods. Tube vs SS debates , natural sound vs un-natural sound debates all are not related to music, music is there and you can enjoy it without any high end audio.

Amir, in this case enjoyment or not enjoyment of live music is not really the point. This just obfuscates the issue about how realistic can the sound be.

I guess it depends on the value you place on getting closer to live sound because for enjoyment, I agree that can be had with extremely modest playback.