Natural Sound

[gleeds]

I find that Ralph's posts are always informative and draw on his extensive background as a respected amplifier designer. I myself have never seen him promoting his brand. That is something I do as a long-term sponsor of the Forum. As for SET amplifiers, I am a big fan of the genre, so much so that I represent Trafomatic Audio, a brand well regarded for producing some of the finest ST amplifiers in the industry, and with certain loudspeaker types, I can see where bi-amplification with SET and non-SET amplifiers may be able to get one closer to the music "naturally".

I do enjoy this thread and hope to continue to learn from it as we get deeper into horn and SET amplification

 

[microstrip]

Yes. That is right. Magic was never claimed. Actually it was Vladimir Lamm who told David about natural sound when David asked him what the ML2 amplifier was doing. Then this became David’s approach for a particular type of presentation, one that referenced the live music listening experience.

Vladimir Lamm called "natural" a type of amplified sound that followed a particular type of hearing mechanism of the human ear that he had studied and developed. In many of his interviews I have read he never addressed using live music as a reference.

Using real musics as a reference for gear evaluation was a concept presented by Harry Pearson of TheAbsoluteSound almost 20 years before Lamm was founded. It had very some positive aspects - freeing audiophiles from the ultra-objective-just-measurements dictatorship of the 60's and early 70's audio magazines and launching the basis for subjective evaluation, but also a negative effect - launching audiophiles in a never ending search of changes, blindly following their master. Fortunately most of his readers could go beyond the gear reviews and understand his concepts, including the ability to express sound matters in words in a consistent way.

Fortunately you stabilized and are an happy audiophile under DDK strong guidance - thank him, not the real concerts you attempted.

 

[PeterA]

Vladimir Lamm called "natural" a type of amplified sound that followed a particular type of hearing mechanism of the human ear that he had studied and developed. In many of his interviews I have read he never addressed using live music as a reference.

Using real musics as a reference for gear evaluation was a concept presented by Harry Pearson of TheAbsoluteSound almost 20 years before Lamm was founded. It had very some positive aspects - freeing audiophiles from the ultra-objective-just-measurements dictatorship of the 60's and early 70's audio magazines and launching the basis for subjective evaluation, but also a negative effect - launching audiophiles in a never ending search of changes, blindly following their master. Fortunately most of his readers could go beyond the gear reviews and understand his concepts, including the ability to express sound matters in words in a consistent way.

Fortunately you stabilized and are an happy audiophile under DDK strong guidance - thank him, not the real concerts you attempted.

I think you misunderstand what I wrote:

“Yes. That is right. Magic was never claimed. Actually it was Vladimir Lamm who told David about natural sound when David asked him what the ML2 amplifier was doing. Then this became David’s approach for a particular type of presentation, one that referenced the live music listening experience.”

Vladimir Lamm introduced David Karmeli to the expression “natural sound”. David then formed an approach to a particular type of sound which he referred to as natural sound and David, not Vladimir, referenced the live music listening experience for the whole system design and set up resulting in the presentation at the listening seat and throughout the room. Vladimir Lamm did not reference live music as far as I know, but I never had the fortune of meeting him to discuss it.

I have thanked David and I was fortunate to meet him. I am blessed to know him and call him my friend. I don’t think you understand the process I went through with David. I described it in my sublime sound system thread with my old system. That was mostly set up advances.

I had heard quite a few horn speakers and a tube amplifiers, including Ralph’s atmosphere products, before I met David in Utah. I remained unimpressed. The exposure was not sufficient, and I had to hear more examples. I also knew what live music sounds like. That is exactly why I knew that David’s approach was right for me after I heard it.

It was not until I heard David’s various systems that I knew how to get to my target. The presentation of his various systems was simply much more convincing than the systems I heard before. David exposed me to a better experience, one that was much closer to the live music listening experience. Of course, I knew what that was because of my concert attendance. I just had not heard it from audio systems before. Yes David has guided me, but I knew the target before meeting him. I just did not know how to get there before.

 

[microstrip]

I think you misunderstand what I wrote:

“Yes. That is right. Magic was never claimed. Actually it was Vladimir Lamm who told David about natural sound when David asked him what the ML2 amplifier was doing. Then this became David’s approach for a particular type of presentation, one that referenced the live music listening experience.”

No, I understood it perfectly - it is why I clarified it - again Vladimir Lamm "natural sound" should not be confused with " referenced the live music listening experience" . Your evolution was confusing.

I quote you in a past post about "natural sound":
"The way I use the term in my system thread, and to describe the experience of listening to systems that sound natural to me, is to say that they represent the experience of listening to live music."

Vladimir Lamm introduced David Karmeli to the expression “natural sound”. David then formed an approach to a particular type of sound which she referred to as natural sound and David, not Vladimir, referenced the live music listening experience for the whole system design and set up. Vladimir Lamm did not reference live music as a reference as far as I know, but I never had the fortune of meeting him.

I have thanked David and I was fortunate to meet him. I don’t think you understand the process I went through. I described it in my sublime sound system thread with my old system. That was mostly set up advances. I had heard quite a few horn speakers and a tube amplifiers, including Ralph’s atmosphere products. I remained unimpressed. The exposure was not sufficient, and I had to hear more examples. And I knew what live music sounds like. But it’s exactly why I knew that it was right after I heard it.

It was not until I heard David’s various systems that I knew my direction. The presentation of his various systems was simply much more convincing. David exposed me to a better experience, one that was much closer to the live music, listening experience.

Thanks for confirming and detailing what I said.

Of course, I knew what that was because of my concert attendance. I just had not heard it from audio systems before. Yes David has guided me, but I knew the target. I just did not know how to get there before.

Can we conclude that people who do not go to concerts can't appreciate Lamm "natural sound" conveniently?

 

[jeff1225]

Many times threads suffer deviations from their original message that can lead to interesting discussions within that same thread, I think Atmasphere was contributing his ideas on natural sound in an acceptable manner and found them interesting. Curtailing valid discussion (even politely) is against the nature of any forum since it discourages participation, I regret Ralph leaving the thread and it´s unfortunate that you and others have shown him the exit door.

I just stated the obvious. This is not a thread about the way to achieve “natural sound,” it’s Peter’s system thread. Ralph and anyone with a brain knows that.

I’m a huge fan of Ralph and have happily owned his amps. He is one of the best contributors to this website, I haven’t shown him the door.

I just going to laugh at your comment and move on.

 

[tima]

This is not a thread about the way to achieve “natural sound,” it’s Peter’s system thread.

Yes, that is important to understanding some of the reactions here.

Peter labeled his system thread 'Natural Sound'. Think of that as a proper name rather than as a set of instructions or prescriptions. (In their failure to grasp that distinction several were confused or offended by his title,) He laid out what he believes that characterization means and how he went about achieving his personal goals. This is not a generic thread about what some might believe are prerequisites for natural sound (eg.wire topology) it is, imo, about where Peter is coming from out of the Lamm ÷ @ddk approach.

As another means to fulfill their mission in a positive way rather than correcting others, one could create a thread "Why balanced cables are necessary for natural sound. Or "Why SET amps alone cannot deliver natural sound."