Modern speakers vs Vintage speakers

Verdier

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Oct 7, 2018
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A very interesting story, these VOTT and Klug horns and modification of the cabinet.

Personally, instead of the super tweeter (which would certainly also be on my list), I would be much more interested in how to get really deep bass out of the VOTTs.
 

Rensselaer

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A very interesting story, these VOTT and Klug horns and modification of the cabinet.

Personally, instead of the super tweeter (which would certainly also be on my list), I would be much more interested in how to get really deep bass out of the VOTTs.
The VOTT are not known to provide ”deep bass” as is. I find the bass they do provide as being realistic enough for my tastes.

I have been told by some that one can extend bass response by decreasing the opening size of the front port (web sites re Altec speakers have suggested different sizes so not a consensus), but one speaker builder article I read on line says that doing so will lower bass frequency reached at the cost of speaker sensitivity.

I have also seen powered sub-woofers advocated as the best way to extend bass response and have seen examples posted on this web site and others. Some argue that the only way to match the speed of these VOTT horn speakers is to run four powered sub-woofers. Not only would such ruin the aesthetic of my vintage look, but even if I did like the look (and had the space), as a retired person on a fixed income I could not afford to buy four powered subwoofers not to mention paying for the electricity to run four powered subs in addition to the rest of my system.
 

pdreher

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Aug 21, 2020
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The horn array option sounds intriguing. I'll be curious as to your findings with just the tweeter facing to the ceiling, as I've had another Altec aficionado recommend the same.

BTW... if you are new to using Duelund cables, I've found they need at least 250 hours to break in. The initial break in period is brutal.. and they sound like garbage until the break in is complete. I feel like I need to get a SS amp just to serve as a break in tool.
 
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Rensselaer

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The horn array option sounds intriguing. I'll be curious as to your findings with just the tweeter facing to the ceiling, as I've had another Altec aficionado recommend the same.

BTW... if you are new to using Duelund cables, I've found they need at least 250 hours to break in. The initial break in period is brutal.. and they sound like garbage until the break in is complete. I feel like I need to get a SS amp just to serve as a break in tool.
Thanks for the warning on the excessive break in time on the Duelund wire, I think I read that elsewhere as well (about making Hiraga crossovers with all-Duelund bits). The Duelund wire used on the speakers in my video above are brand new so it will be interesting to hear them open up.
 
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christoph

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I feel like I need to get a SS amp just to serve as a break in tool.
Always a good idea to save precious tube life/avoid heat
 

christoph

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Except when jamming to the tunes! Then accept no substitutes :cool:
For burning-in components, not for serious music listening, obviously ;)
 

Rensselaer

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So now the latest enhancements to my Altec A7 project.

The "Hiraga-style" crossovers I purchased from Pete Riggle include a circuit for the inclusion of super tweeters. That circuit is bypassed until a switch is engaged and the associated attenuator adjusted. Pete says that the inclusion of a JPL ST400 Super Tweeter facing forward in vertical alignment with the other voice coils helps the sound greatly (and even somehow improves bass definition). He sent me photos of his attached to an arched arm from the side of the bass cabinet holding the super tweeter over the compression driver high enough to clear the treble horns, and that arched arm held down with bricks or something similar. Now, I love the "old school" look of the Altec's as they are (albeit modified now with a new wooden exponential horn array built for me by Marcus Klug) and do not want to see some modern super tweeter mounted on an arm over the horns (or sub woofers along side for that matter either). In addition, I have high frequency hearing loss and tinnitus so what would be the point of super tweeters putting out a signal that I can't hear anyway (my suspicions verified, I believed, when I heard no difference between videos of before and after adding super tweeters that another Altec A7 enthusiast posted videos of).

Although I was ok with what I had done so far, my mate Hugo Cass convinced me it would be relatively inexpensive to try just to see so I purchased the two super tweeters (and some more Duelund tinned wire) and mentioned that I would follow up with you all once they were here and hooked up (see above).

As mentioned, I don't like the looks of the super tweeters mounted above the horns on crude arms so enquired on the internet (as one does) about pointing the super tweeter so that the signal bounces off the ceiling or the back wall instead (so that it is hidden out of sight behind the treble horns). I found a video where a man shows how forward facing super tweeters can be quite problematic. He had a small bookshelf speaker and a super tweeter, using a single cap for crossover duty. Signal went through a frequency monitor and the db at each frequency of each speaker was plotted on the screen for easy appreciation. At first he showed the frequency of the bookshelf speaker by itself, pretty flat. Then the speaker voice coils of both the book shelf and the super tweeter were aligned as close to vertical alignment as possible and that caused some uneven waves in the main speaker. As he moved the super tweeter back in small stages the monitor revealed big disruptions including large sections of no signal and he explained they were a result of cancelation. Then he suggested pointing the super tweeter backwards or up and bouncing the sound from it as the best solution as then the delay would prevent any cancelation and the phase difference, if perceptible, easily corrected by a nudge one way or the next. As my ceiling is angled upward towards the centre of the room I placed the super tweeters, magnet down on a circle of dense computer component foam, facing up.

Because of my hearing deficit (and absolute belief that I would hear no difference), I had my wife (whose high frequency hearing is much better than mine) come in and audition each stage of the addition and report what, if anything, she heard.

I had everything hooked up but the super tweeter circuit turned off. I played the first part of a track for her to listen to. I then turned on the super tweeter circuit switch, but did not add volume (I was checking to see if some of the treble I had before was now lost to a new circuit). I replayed the first part of that same track. She thought there was something different, but could not discern what, but said it was better? I then turned up the volume to the 9 o-clock position on each super tweeter circuit on the crossover and had her listen to that same record cut. She smiled and said it was much better. I was sitting way off to the side of the room, but had a vague sense of something being different too. After she listened to the rest of that track she exclaimed, "here, you sit here and listen".

I sat there in the best listening position and listened to the rest of that record, then the next, and then another. I was literally blown away. The instruments, voices, everything sounded more "real", it had greater "presence" too. With one live jazz recording, I was not only in the same room but in the second row. Those recordings that were better in timbre, balance and air. So what was going on? This must be what people mean when they talk about the "psychoacoustic" effects of analogue playback of frequencies above the range of normal hearing. I looked it up (internet again), and found that recording studios sometimes add an EQ boost between 30-40 kHz which causes an increase in "slew rate/rise time", which is thought to add dimension and clarity to sound.

I am quite pleased with the sound now, but will not add a video of it for the following reason; as I said before, I could not discern any difference when another group member submitted videos of music played over his Altec's before and after the addition of super tweeters. My first belief as to the reason (as I stated) was because of my high frequency hearing deficit, but now believe it was because the analogue to digital converter in cellphones limits frequency a good deal below 20 kHz (higher frequencies saved for bluetooth signals I read) so that even if your computer had a DAC capable of reproducing frequencies in the 30-40 kHz range, those frequencies (from the super tweeter) would not have been recorded on the cellphone.

I am hoping that my Altec A7 adventures will be of interest to some readers out there. And if I am mistaken in some of my assumptions, I am sure someone will soon sort me out.
 

pdreher

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2020
19
3
60
St. Louis Missouri
So now the latest enhancements to my Altec A7 project.

The "Hiraga-style" crossovers I purchased from Pete Riggle include a circuit for the inclusion of super tweeters. That circuit is bypassed until a switch is engaged and the associated attenuator adjusted. Pete says that the inclusion of a JPL ST400 Super Tweeter facing forward in vertical alignment with the other voice coils helps the sound greatly (and even somehow improves bass definition). He sent me photos of his attached to an arched arm from the side of the bass cabinet holding the super tweeter over the compression driver high enough to clear the treble horns, and that arched arm held down with bricks or something similar. Now, I love the "old school" look of the Altec's as they are (albeit modified now with a new wooden exponential horn array built for me by Marcus Klug) and do not want to see some modern super tweeter mounted on an arm over the horns (or sub woofers along side for that matter either). In addition, I have high frequency hearing loss and tinnitus so what would be the point of super tweeters putting out a signal that I can't hear anyway (my suspicions verified, I believed, when I heard no difference between videos of before and after adding super tweeters that another Altec A7 enthusiast posted videos of).

Although I was ok with what I had done so far, my mate Hugo Cass convinced me it would be relatively inexpensive to try just to see so I purchased the two super tweeters (and some more Duelund tinned wire) and mentioned that I would follow up with you all once they were here and hooked up (see above).

As mentioned, I don't like the looks of the super tweeters mounted above the horns on crude arms so enquired on the internet (as one does) about pointing the super tweeter so that the signal bounces off the ceiling or the back wall instead (so that it is hidden out of sight behind the treble horns). I found a video where a man shows how forward facing super tweeters can be quite problematic. He had a small bookshelf speaker and a super tweeter, using a single cap for crossover duty. Signal went through a frequency monitor and the db at each frequency of each speaker was plotted on the screen for easy appreciation. At first he showed the frequency of the bookshelf speaker by itself, pretty flat. Then the speaker voice coils of both the book shelf and the super tweeter were aligned as close to vertical alignment as possible and that caused some uneven waves in the main speaker. As he moved the super tweeter back in small stages the monitor revealed big disruptions including large sections of no signal and he explained they were a result of cancelation. Then he suggested pointing the super tweeter backwards or up and bouncing the sound from it as the best solution as then the delay would prevent any cancelation and the phase difference, if perceptible, easily corrected by a nudge one way or the next. As my ceiling is angled upward towards the centre of the room I placed the super tweeters, magnet down on a circle of dense computer component foam, facing up.

Because of my hearing deficit (and absolute belief that I would hear no difference), I had my wife (whose high frequency hearing is much better than mine) come in and audition each stage of the addition and report what, if anything, she heard.

I had everything hooked up but the super tweeter circuit turned off. I played the first part of a track for her to listen to. I then turned on the super tweeter circuit switch, but did not add volume (I was checking to see if some of the treble I had before was now lost to a new circuit). I replayed the first part of that same track. She thought there was something different, but could not discern what, but said it was better? I then turned up the volume to the 9 o-clock position on each super tweeter circuit on the crossover and had her listen to that same record cut. She smiled and said it was much better. I was sitting way off to the side of the room, but had a vague sense of something being different too. After she listened to the rest of that track she exclaimed, "here, you sit here and listen".

I sat there in the best listening position and listened to the rest of that record, then the next, and then another. I was literally blown away. The instruments, voices, everything sounded more "real", it had greater "presence" too. With one live jazz recording, I was not only in the same room but in the second row. Those recordings that were better in timbre, balance and air. So what was going on? This must be what people mean when they talk about the "psychoacoustic" effects of analogue playback of frequencies above the range of normal hearing. I looked it up (internet again), and found that recording studios sometimes add an EQ boost between 30-40 kHz which causes an increase in "slew rate/rise time", which is thought to add dimension and clarity to sound.

I am quite pleased with the sound now, but will not add a video of it for the following reason; as I said before, I could not discern any difference when another group member submitted videos of music played over his Altec's before and after the addition of super tweeters. My first belief as to the reason (as I stated) was because of my high frequency hearing deficit, but now believe it was because the analogue to digital converter in cellphones limits frequency a good deal below 20 kHz (higher frequencies saved for bluetooth signals I read) so that even if your computer had a DAC capable of reproducing frequencies in the 30-40 kHz range, those frequencies (from the super tweeter) would not have been recorded on the cellphone.

I am hoping that my Altec A7 adventures will be of interest to some readers out there. And if I am mistaken in some of my assumptions, I am sure someone will soon sort me out.
Good to hear you're getting favorable results implementing super tweeters with Pete's XO's. I'd like to see pictures showing the positioning & mounting of the super tweeter (pointing to the ceiling still I presume), as I intend to implement them as well when my XO's arrive in February.

Also, how many hours have you put on your Duelund hook up wires? If you haven't reached the 200 hour mark, you can expect to hear continued improvement as I've found them to sound pretty grating until fully broken in. Did you use 16 gage or 20 gage for your connections from XO to drivers?
 

Rensselaer

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Good to hear you're getting favorable results implementing super tweeters with Pete's XO's. I'd like to see pictures showing the positioning & mounting of the super tweeter (pointing to the ceiling still I presume), as I intend to implement them as well when my XO's arrive in February.

Also, how many hours have you put on your Duelund hook up wires? If you haven't reached the 200 hour mark, you can expect to hear continued improvement as I've found them to sound pretty grating until fully broken in. Did you use 16 gage or 20 gage for your connections from XO to drivers?
16 gauge fit the clip-holes just fine. I try and play records for 1.5 - 2.0 hours each day. I will try and remember to post a photo.
 
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Rensselaer

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Good to hear you're getting favorable results implementing super tweeters with Pete's XO's. I'd like to see pictures showing the positioning & mounting of the super tweeter (pointing to the ceiling still I presume), as I intend to implement them as well when my XO's arrive in February.

Also, how many hours have you put on your Duelund hook up wires? If you haven't reached the 200 hour mark, you can expect to hear continued improvement as I've found them to sound pretty grating until fully broken in. Did you use 16 gage or 20 gage for your connections from XO to drivers?
Ok, here is a couple of photos, one of the super tweeter sitting atop a dense foam pad, on my bass cab, pointing up to the ceiling. The other a view showing the angle of the ceiling which may or may not be helping with the bounce.

I'm sorry, I am not being allowed to transfer two photos made from my iPhone or iPad to this website, even if I transfer them first to the screen of my iMac. Says wrong format.

If your ceiling is flat, you could build a L-shaped wooden block with notch to hold horn edge and added block to set under magnet so that the super tweeter is secure sitting on it's side so that you can bounce the sound off the back wall (I suppose hold a mirror on the back wall and turn the speaker at a set distance from the back wall until someone sitting in the listening seat sees the front of each super tweeter pointing at them in the reflection?)
 

pdreher

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Aug 21, 2020
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St. Louis Missouri
It's difficult for me to visualize... but my crossovers won't arrive until mid February.
 

R Johnson

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Jul 24, 2010
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Ok, here is a couple of photos, one of the super tweeter sitting atop a dense foam pad, on my bass cab, pointing up to the ceiling. The other a view showing the angle of the ceiling which may or may not be helping with the bounce.

I'm sorry, I am not being allowed to transfer two photos made from my iPhone or iPad to this website, even if I transfer them first to the screen of my iMac. Says wrong format.
Perhaps the photos are in Apple's HEIC format. If so, try converting to JPG.
 

Rensselaer

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It's difficult for me to visualize... but my crossovers won't arrive until mid February.
I started with the super tweeters pointing up at the ceiling, but had to cover the upturned opening with a sheet of toilet paper to prevent it filling up with dust when not in use. I then considered bouncing the sound off the back wall. I have made a video of the set up so you can see how the bounce the sound to the listening position without the need for ladder work above my treble horn. The magnet is sitting on computer foam, the speaker surround frame on the back corner of the bass cabinets. The recording is just a record I like, nothing audiophile, and you may hear some room reflections as I haven't treated the room, but you will get the feeling anyway.

 
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pdreher

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I started with the super tweeters pointing up at the ceiling, but had to cover the upturned opening with a sheet of toilet paper to prevent it filling up with dust when not in use. I then considered bouncing the sound off the back wall. I have made a video of the set up so you can see how the bounce the sound to the listening position without the need for ladder work above my treble horn. The magnet is sitting on computer foam, the speaker surround frame on the back corner of the bass cabinets. The recording is just a record I like, nothing audiophile, and you may hear some room reflections as I haven't treated the room, but you will get the feeling anyway.

So do you prefer the sound with the super tweeter circuit engaged? It sounds nice to me, but obviously listening via earbuds on a YouTube recording is not the same as being in the room.
 

thomask

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After installing Farad linear power supplies to Dave, it sounds more detailed with better separation and dynamics.


Please note that this is hybrid of Scaena and Altec basshorn using Pap C1 active crossover.

Scaena main tower covers up from 290hz.

Altec basshorn cover 290hz and down.

Two Scaena 18 inch subwoofers are added 56hz and down.
 
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Rensselaer

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So do you prefer the sound with the super tweeter circuit engaged? It sounds nice to me, but obviously listening via earbuds on a YouTube recording is not the same as being in the room.
Yes, it sounds MUCH better.
 
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pdreher

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Aug 21, 2020
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That's encouraging. I'm glad I chose this option on Pete's crossovers.
 

Hi-FiGuy

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I started with the super tweeters pointing up at the ceiling, but had to cover the upturned opening with a sheet of toilet paper to prevent it filling up with dust when not in use. I then considered bouncing the sound off the back wall. I have made a video of the set up so you can see how the bounce the sound to the listening position without the need for ladder work above my treble horn. The magnet is sitting on computer foam, the speaker surround frame on the back corner of the bass cabinets. The recording is just a record I like, nothing audiophile, and you may hear some room reflections as I haven't treated the room, but you will get the feeling anyway.

awesome and that is a fantastic album
 

Zeotrope

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Feb 11, 2021
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In regards to Vintage Speakers; last week I replaced my Altec A7 stock crossovers with some custom Hiraga design units by Pete Riggle in Kennewick, Washington. I wired them to the speaker posts with Duelund Dual DCA16GA tinned copper multi strand wire in cotton and oil, which I must say is about as large a gauge as one should try to get into the Altec speaker wire clips. The crossovers and wire are still burning in, and the sound is still improving, but already the difference is as great as night and day. The bass so big now that it rattles the back plywood panel because of delimitation that was not apparent before the change. I believe the improvement in sound is due to two things, first the proven Hiraga design, second Pete's use of large NOS oil-filled capacitors.

The crossovers follow the Hiraga design mostly, as they also have switchable notch filters, allowing the ability to remove 2db, or 4db at 3.5kHz, but I found they sound best on my system set for flat response crossover at 525Hz. There is also a separate circuit for adding a Super Tweeter at some stage.

The only way I know how to add a photo to this site is by adding a video, so made a short one of two photos of the crossover (front and inside) as follows:

For any of you with Altec A5's or A7's who have not already changed the crossovers, I would recommend Pete's whole-heartedly. As I already implied, the improvement is not subtle.

I am sorry, wasn't able to get the inside included.
Very interesting!
I can attest to the massive difference an improved crossover can make.
Also use the Duelund 16 and 12GA tinned copper wires. They take a LONG time to break-in - 150 hours. The sound will change significantly during that time, including sounding downright terrible for the first 100 hours or so…

I am using a combination of 12GA and 16GA. Each sounds considerably different. At the low cost, it’s worth experimenting with both gauges.
 

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