What is going to be your endgame speaker?

dcathro

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Sep 16, 2016
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A long response to tell us about your credentials and that you joined the DIY community in this hobby. A valid approach that I respect and would love to join if I had the time and motivation, but surely can't be considered an example of endgame.

I really don't have any credentials :D

I got into DIY because it gave me an opportunity to play in an active creative way. I am not capable of doing circuit designs, but taking a good circuit and playing with all the components and materials that go into it's being gives me a greater level of participation - a bit like tube rolling does for other. Speaker design is another matter as it is much more accessible.

You say it cannot be considered end game but I disagree.

From owning many speakers, and from learning from others who have far greater knowledge and experience than myself, I came to the conclusion that there is no commercial speaker that I would really want to live with.

You could argue that I don't have the skill, knowledge or resources to carry it out, but I know my destination and spend my time trying to reach it.
 

pjwd

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Jun 22, 2015
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I really don't have any credentials :D

I got into DIY because it gave me an opportunity to play in an active creative way. I am not capable of doing circuit designs, but taking a good circuit and playing with all the components and materials that go into it's being gives me a greater level of participation - a bit like tube rolling does for other. Speaker design is another matter as it is much more accessible.

You say it cannot be considered end game but I disagree.

From owning many speakers, and from learning from others who have far greater knowledge and experience than myself, I came to the conclusion that there is no commercial speaker that I would really want to live with.

You could argue that I don't have the skill, knowledge or resources to carry it out, but I know my destination and spend my time trying to reach it.
I agree David

When you start designing and building speakers you tend to select a path that excites you ( based on commercial offerings or prior attempts) and continually refine the designs towards a pretty clear endgame .. the best possible in that genre within the limits of a diy world... which can be pretty amazing

Phil
 
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AudioHR

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AudioHR

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High River, Alberta Canada
Endgame speaker will depend on personal taste, budget and size of listening room.

On 1989, I lived in apartment at Chicago with 15feet W 20 feet D 8 feet H listeing space.

I had auditioned ML CLS, several Apogee and other box speakers.

After auditioning several choices, my endgame speaker on 1989 turned out to be Apogee Diva driven by Krell KSA 250.

But I could not afford it at that time, thus I had settled at Apogee Duetta Sig driven by Krell KSA 150.

I had been happy with Apogee Duetta Sig driven by Krell KSA 150. until 1998.



But I want more deeper bass and switched to Avalon Ascent II which sound too bright with Krell amp.

Thus I switched to Jadia 200 and then Jadia 500.

Avalon Ascent II driven by Jadis 500 sound very musical with no serious faults at all.

But one audio dealer offered big discount on Wilson Watt Puppy 5 and I switched to it on 2001

Watt Puppy 5 gave nice details with 3 d soundstage but too bright for my taste.

I used DCS Elgar and upsampler fed by CEC TLX 0 using volume of Elgar without any pre amp.

Thus I let Watt Puppy 5 go only after 6 months and got B&W Notilus 800 instead.

I had enjoyed B&W Notilus 800 driven by Jadis 500 from 2002 to 2004

It had given most powerful bass that I had experienced in my listening space.


On 2004, Mr Chung of Silbatone who is a close friend of mine recommended me to try full range speaker(6 inch driver) with his Silbatone 300B SET.

While I enjoy Jadis 500, I could not play it during summer due to too much heat.

Thus I followed Mr Chung's recommendation.

Full range speaker(6 inch driver) driven by Silbatone 300B.SET gave gracious sound with nice tonality, but no serious bass or dynamics.

After using full range speaker for two years, I swithced to Lansche 4.1 on 2006.

At that time my listening room was rather small 10 ft W 15 ft D 7 ft H.

Lansche 4.1 driven by Silbatone 300B SET. fitted by WE 300b made in 1950's gave perfect sound in the small listeing space with clean and sublime lady vocal, nice dynamics and timber.

But after moving to larger listening spcae of 15 ft W 20ft D 12 ft H, Silbatone 300B SET. could not drive Lansche 4.1 with enough power.

Thus I had to switch to higher power tube amp to drive Lansche 4.1

On 2021 I got Altec A7 which gave unlimited dynamcis and vintage flavor.

On 2022, I also assembled Scaena 3.2 which I got used on 2020 but could not assemble it during Corona pendamic.

Scaena 3.2 gave very realistic placement of each instrument in deep and wide soundstage but not going deep enough below 30 hz.

After getting pair of Rel 31s April this year, Scaena 3.2 augmented by pair of Rel 31s really sings with nimble and deep bass.

During last two years, I attended Pacific Audiofest 2022, 2023 and Seoul Audio Show 2023.

If I choose one speaker that impressed me is big Genesis with natural and lifelike dynamics from reel tape as source.

But it is too big for my current listening space of 16 ft wide 20 ft deep 15ft to 20 feet sloped ceiling.

I am too lazy to build larger dedicated listening space.

View attachment 117835

I wil use my currrent house as is.

If i start new, i may choose either MBL 101e or Asylvox planar.

View attachment 117836

Songer Audio field coil speaker also sounds fresh and fast which may fit for second listing space on the third flooer.

But as I am happy with my current speakers, it will be side grade.


For the time being, I will take turns between Scaena 3.2, Lansche 4.1 and Altec A7 depending on my mood and music.

in the future, I would like to get genuine WE vintage horn system.

View attachment 117834

I found one in good condition on 2020 at Seoul, Korea.

It sounds very natural and fast with unlimited dynamics driven by 20 Watts tube amp.

But at that time, I was hesitant to withdraw 250k $ from my stock account.

If I find similar one again, I may jump at it as my endgame speaker.
I enjoyed hearing about your Audio journey, thanks for posting!
 

microstrip

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(...) You say it cannot be considered end game but I disagree.

Probably semantics, but I consider that once we enter the DIY there is never an end in this hobby. For some one who enters it, there is always something else to perfect in his design - different parts, different ways of using them. There is such diversity in components and the prices are very accessible - if we have carpentry skills and know how to solder there in an accessible infinite number of options to consider. Professional designers usually use listening panels to guide and control their designs, as well other restrains - something that limits their options.

From owning many speakers, and from learning from others who have far greater knowledge and experience than myself, I came to the conclusion that there is no commercial speaker that I would really want to live with.

Ok - we have different points of view on this aspect and in general about the hobby. There are many commercial speakers that I would easily live with. Probably because I learned enough about this hobby to made me understand the importance of bias and education in the high-end and how far is sound reproduction from real music.

You could argue that I don't have the skill, knowledge or resources to carry it out, but I know my destination and spend my time trying to reach it.

Why should I do it? I know several DIY people who did it successfully, even helped a few, I do not have doubts that you can be successful. My opinion is simply that going DIY is intrinsically a different league from going into commercial high-end.
 
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microstrip

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Except for "bragging rights" I don't know why anybody would order a WAMM over an XVX, and forgo the brilliant new alnico midrange.

For me, the way to make such decision would be listening to both in the Wilson Audio listening room. Having listened to my favorite recordings played by the WAMM in excellent conditions I would not accept any one advice or opinion without listening with my ears!
 

dcathro

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2016
585
740
228
Melbourne, Australia
Endgame speaker will depend on personal taste, budget and size of listening room.

On 1989, I lived in apartment at Chicago with 15feet W 20 feet D 8 feet H listeing space.

I had auditioned ML CLS, several Apogee and other box speakers.

After auditioning several choices, my endgame speaker on 1989 turned out to be Apogee Diva driven by Krell KSA 250.

But I could not afford it at that time, thus I had settled at Apogee Duetta Sig driven by Krell KSA 150.

I had been happy with Apogee Duetta Sig driven by Krell KSA 150. until 1998.



But I want more deeper bass and switched to Avalon Ascent II which sound too bright with Krell amp.

Thus I switched to Jadia 200 and then Jadia 500.

Avalon Ascent II driven by Jadis 500 sound very musical with no serious faults at all.

But one audio dealer offered big discount on Wilson Watt Puppy 5 and I switched to it on 2001

Watt Puppy 5 gave nice details with 3 d soundstage but too bright for my taste.

I used DCS Elgar and upsampler fed by CEC TLX 0 using volume of Elgar without any pre amp.

Thus I let Watt Puppy 5 go only after 6 months and got B&W Notilus 800 instead.

I had enjoyed B&W Notilus 800 driven by Jadis 500 from 2002 to 2004

It had given most powerful bass that I had experienced in my listening space.


On 2004, Mr Chung of Silbatone who is a close friend of mine recommended me to try full range speaker(6 inch driver) with his Silbatone 300B SET.

While I enjoy Jadis 500, I could not play it during summer due to too much heat.

Thus I followed Mr Chung's recommendation.

Full range speaker(6 inch driver) driven by Silbatone 300B.SET gave gracious sound with nice tonality, but no serious bass or dynamics.

After using full range speaker for two years, I swithced to Lansche 4.1 on 2006.

At that time my listening room was rather small 10 ft W 15 ft D 7 ft H.

Lansche 4.1 driven by Silbatone 300B SET. fitted by WE 300b made in 1950's gave perfect sound in the small listeing space with clean and sublime lady vocal, nice dynamics and timber.

But after moving to larger listening spcae of 15 ft W 20ft D 12 ft H, Silbatone 300B SET. could not drive Lansche 4.1 with enough power.

Thus I had to switch to higher power tube amp to drive Lansche 4.1

On 2021 I got Altec A7 which gave unlimited dynamcis and vintage flavor.

On 2022, I also assembled Scaena 3.2 which I got used on 2020 but could not assemble it during Corona pandemic.

Scaena 3.2 gave very realistic placement of each instrument in deep and wide soundstage but not going deep enough below 30 hz.

After getting pair of Rel 31s April this year, Scaena 3.2 augmented by pair of Rel 31s really sings with nimble and deep bass.

During last two years, I attended Pacific Audiofest 2022, 2023 and Seoul Audio Show 2023.

If I choose one speaker that impressed me is big Genesis with natural and lifelike dynamics from reel tape as source.

But it is too big for my current listening space of 16 ft wide 20 ft deep 15ft to 20 feet sloped ceiling.

I am too lazy to build larger dedicated listening space.

View attachment 117835

I wil use my currrent house as is.

If i start new, i may choose either MBL 101e or Asylvox planar.


But as I am happy with my current speakers, it will be side grade.

View attachment 117836

Songer Audio field coil speaker also sounds fresh and fast which may fit for second listing space on the third flooer.



For the time being, I will take turns between Scaena 3.2, Lansche 4.1 and Altec A7 depending on my mood and music.

in the future, I would like to get genuine WE vintage horn system.

View attachment 117834

I found one in good condition on 2020 at Seoul, Korea.

It sounds very natural and fast with unlimited dynamics driven by 20 Watts tube amp.

But at that time, I was hesitant to withdraw 250k $ from my stock account.

If I find similar one again, I may jump at it as my endgame speaker.

Hey Thomas,

Great to hear your experience.

I will be interested to hear your experience with the Songa field coils.
 
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dcathro

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2016
585
740
228
Melbourne, Australia
I agree David

When you start designing and building speakers you tend to select a path that excites you ( based on commercial offerings or prior attempts) and continually refine the designs towards a pretty clear endgame .. the best possible in that genre within the limits of a diy world... which can be pretty amazing

Phil

Thanks Phil,

If you know exactly what you want, it may be the only way to get there. You need time and patience and the understanding that you are going to get it wrong multiple times before you succeed.
 
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dcathro

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2016
585
740
228
Melbourne, Australia
Probably semantics, but I consider that once we enter the DIY there is never an end in this hobby. For some one who enters it, there is always something else to perfect in his design - different parts, different ways of using them. There is such diversity in components and the prices are very accessible - if we have carpentry skills and know how to solder there in an accessible infinite number of options to consider. Professional designers usually use listening panels to guide and control their designs, as well other restrains - something that limits their options.

End game does not mean that one cannot do some subtle refinements along the way. It means that one is not going to go a different speaker or different design.

My Alon Phalanx got rebuilt 25 years ago with silver wire and with more refined crossovers - this was actually the fine tuning of the values to get better coherence and flow. Today there are better resistors and capacitors available, would changing to those invalidate this as an end game choice?

Ok - we have different points of view on this aspect and in general about the hobby. There are many commercial speakers that I would easily live with. Probably because I learned enough about this hobby to made me understand the importance of bias and education in the high-end and how far is sound reproduction from real music.

I can really enjoy other peoples systems and a wide range of speakers, but that is different to my living with them. I have this unfortunate predilection for PRAT that very few speakers, to my ears, do. I have to admit though, that I have not investigated all the options out there, and there is also the element of budget. I would never spend what others may, which would limit my options. The current parts cost of my 3-ways is about US$25K.
 

microstrip

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(...) My end game speakers are a 3-way speaker that I have been building myself for the past 13 years (I spent a year on them, got interrupted and then started again during our famous Melbourne CV lock down). This is my attempt to do everything that is important to me, that no manufacturer does.

Coherency comes first so a full range Supravox driver operating from 180Hz to 6KHz, a Wolf Von Langa 15" bass 30Hz to 180Hz and Seas Exotic Alnico 1.5" tweeter from 5Khz up. The crossover is external, 1st order with the best parts. The Supravox is open baffle for reduced cabinet coloration and all the drivers are time aligned. The sensitivity is 94db with an 8ohm load and the phase is within +/- 20deg. (...)

End game does not mean that one cannot do some subtle refinements along the way. It means that one is not going to go a different speaker or different design.

My Alon Phalanx got rebuilt 25 years ago with silver wire and with more refined crossovers - this was actually the fine tuning of the values to get better coherence and flow. Today there are better resistors and capacitors available, would changing to those invalidate this as an end game choice? (...)

IMO it invalidates, sorry. In my experience what you describe can completely change the speaker sound signature. But as far as I could understand the Alon Phalanx was not your end game. ;)
 

AudioHR

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Feb 11, 2023
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High River, Alberta Canada
End game does not mean that one cannot do some subtle refinements along the way. It means that one is not going to go a different speaker or different design.

My Alon Phalanx got rebuilt 25 years ago with silver wire and with more refined crossovers - this was actually the fine tuning of the values to get better coherence and flow. Today there are better resistors and capacitors available, would changing to those invalidate this as an end game choice?



I can really enjoy other peoples systems and a wide range of speakers, but that is different to my living with them. I have this unfortunate predilection for PRAT that very few speakers, to my ears, do. I have to admit though, that I have not investigated all the options out there, and there is also the element of budget. I would never spend what others may, which would limit my options. The current parts cost of my 3-ways is about US$25K.
I have been following your posts so I suspect you are on the right tract for what you wish to achieve.

But just as a niggle I would like to hear what your opinion would be on the Coherent Neo 18 speakers. If I am reading you right these might be something you would like. End game, I don't know just being a shit disturber., I have them and paired with the right stuff they are far better than one might expect!
 

dcathro

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2016
585
740
228
Melbourne, Australia
I have been following your posts so I suspect you are on the right tract for what you wish to achieve.

But just as a niggle I would like to hear what your opinion would be on the Coherent Neo 18 speakers. If I am reading you right these might be something you would like. End game, I don't know just being a shit disturber., I have them and paired with the right stuff they are far better than one might expect!

Thank you!

It's too hard to say if I would love them, but there are a lot of things about them that look promising. I have enjoyed listening to friends co-axials.
 
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thomask

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Apogee Diva was my endgame speaker on 1989 but could not afford it and settled on Duetta Sig instead.

It is available at reasonable price but local pickup only.

If I want to get it, I have to drive 15 hours

:cool:
 

thomask

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I had not listened to Magico M9 yet.

It may not be my endgame speaker but I will try to listen to it this November.

I will be at Seoul to celebrate my granddaughter's first birthday.

The above audio shop is in 10 minutes from my residence in Seoul.
 

thomask

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A Korean singer who passed away 20 years ago.

I liked his song when I was young.

The translation.

My love left me although I did not want.

I try to forget her but could not.
 

dcathro

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2016
585
740
228
Melbourne, Australia

Apogee Diva was my endgame speaker on 1989 but could not afford it and settled on Duetta Sig instead.

It is available at reasonable price but local pickup only.

If I want to get it, I have to drive 15 hours

:cool:

Vintage second hand produces some great bargains!
 
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thomask

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I bought my first audio system of ADS bookself speaker, Fisher Integrated and Garrad turntable on 1978 from one of shop in this shopping complex.

You can find intersting vintage system over there.
 
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