I was referring to your post which was apparently directed at Torus making proper measurements, not my measurements or me making measurements.
I thought you were implying that the curves Torus provided needed more explanation.
Isolation Transformer and Balanced Power versus PS Audio Regenerator
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
- Start date
I thought you were implying that the curves Torus provided needed more explanation.
Given that PS regens radically change sound based on the cord between the wall and them, what they measure like really means nothing to me with this attribute.
Ears can confuse you too, in a way. That is because people associate what they hear with things that don't make sense. What sounds right is good for the listener but their logic may be formally inept to explain it.
I would assume Torus published data is correct. Too easy to test. Lying would not help them. And Atmasphere indicated not all Toroid cores are the same. And Torus has the Narrow Bandwidth Technology.
Sometimes I do wonder about multiple small filters vs one large filter. I believe multiple branch circuits are a benefit. So do you use multiple filters. And if you use multiple filters, do you stick with one technology like people do with power cords.
Sometimes I do wonder about multiple small filters vs one large filter. I believe multiple branch circuits are a benefit. So do you use multiple filters. And if you use multiple filters, do you stick with one technology like people do with power cords.
I was on a commercial job today. I think a single phase to 3 phase converter is messing up the power at the site. I have to confirm after the equipment can be shut off. But that made me look for a solution which lead to a rotary power converter. Basically a motor that runs on 240 single phase, then kicks back a 3rd phase that is synced to the initial 2 phases. That made me wonder again about rotary power supplies. The 3rd phase this device sends back is a stand alone newly generated phase. It could be tapped off and combined with the neutral for a new clean phase. The issues is the utility neutral is still in use and much noise still remains.
But what if you got a generator motor like this and attached a drive motor to it with a belt. A completely isolated power supply.
But what if you got a generator motor like this and attached a drive motor to it with a belt. A completely isolated power supply.
Any view of these? There’s plenty of published data on their website
www.onfilter.com
They also make a line of ground filters
CleanSweep AC EMI Filters AF Series | OnFILTER
Plug-and-play CleanSweep AF series 13...30A AC Power Line EMI filters reduce noise where it matters - in your application. CleanSweep AC EMI filters offer superior EMI attenuation over common filters, providing noise reduction in both differential and common modes, and, uniquely, in ground.
www.onfilter.com
They also make a line of ground filters
Refreshing to see a company that shows its measurements, how they are measured and chooses not to market itself with proprietary mystery and woo-woo. I didn’t see a price, but I get the feeling it’s reasonable.Any view of these? There’s plenty of published data on their website
CleanSweep AC EMI Filters AF Series | OnFILTER
Plug-and-play CleanSweep AF series 13...30A AC Power Line EMI filters reduce noise where it matters - in your application. CleanSweep AC EMI filters offer superior EMI attenuation over common filters, providing noise reduction in both differential and common modes, and, uniquely, in ground.
They also make a line of ground filters
You can get a brand new P20, and even get a generous trade if you like. You can try it for a month. If you like it, keep it and send in your trade. If you don’t like it, send it back.
Worried about a power cord? PSAudio includes one, but you can use your own. I started with the stock cord, changed to an AQ Hurricane, kept the P20, and changed again to the top level (at the time) from Transparent.
I would not characterize the differences in power cords as “radical,” as another poster suggests above. But it can be “noticeable.”
One mod I did make and stick with was to swap the arc fault interrupt 20 amp breaker on that circuit to a regular 20 amp breaker.
Instead of all the wondering, I’d just go ahead and order one. When I bought mine, they were built to order, so it took a couple of weeks to ship.
As mentioned in one of my earlier posts, the effect was dependent on the powered gear. It was great with my ARC amps and my Burmester amp. Lousy with my CJ amps. Neutral with my Denon HT receiver.
You’ll never know if you don’t try. And you do not need a consultant to come in and set it up. I do not use the wave shaping or other exotic features. I just set it on a 117 VAC sine wave, dim the display, and let it do its job. I was a complete skeptic before buying the used P12. If I’d only tried it with my CJ or Denon gear, I would have declared it to be a waste of money. But on ARC and Burmester, it more than justified itself and I consider it to be an important part of the success of my system.
Worried about a power cord? PSAudio includes one, but you can use your own. I started with the stock cord, changed to an AQ Hurricane, kept the P20, and changed again to the top level (at the time) from Transparent.
I would not characterize the differences in power cords as “radical,” as another poster suggests above. But it can be “noticeable.”
One mod I did make and stick with was to swap the arc fault interrupt 20 amp breaker on that circuit to a regular 20 amp breaker.
Instead of all the wondering, I’d just go ahead and order one. When I bought mine, they were built to order, so it took a couple of weeks to ship.
As mentioned in one of my earlier posts, the effect was dependent on the powered gear. It was great with my ARC amps and my Burmester amp. Lousy with my CJ amps. Neutral with my Denon HT receiver.
You’ll never know if you don’t try. And you do not need a consultant to come in and set it up. I do not use the wave shaping or other exotic features. I just set it on a 117 VAC sine wave, dim the display, and let it do its job. I was a complete skeptic before buying the used P12. If I’d only tried it with my CJ or Denon gear, I would have declared it to be a waste of money. But on ARC and Burmester, it more than justified itself and I consider it to be an important part of the success of my system.
Maybe I"ll look closer that the device later. But if you have 3 phase power at a site and the loads are imbalanced it'll lead to inefficiency at the least. 3 phase power is very good but can't just be used all willy-nilly as separate legs irrespective of each other. Even when it looks somewhat innocent, this was a go-to adjustment my uncle would address with certain very large facilities using lots of transformers from what he told me when I talked to him about transformer choices in megawatt duties.
Wouldn’t it be interesting to know why you liked the power plant with some amps but not others?
I wanted to like the P 20, but found the Torus a more natural sound here.
In my experience they can be "radical" - you can easily completely ruin the sound of a system just picking goog power cables that are inadequate for your system. IMO it is much easier to do harm to a system than to optimize them!
Yes, although they show some common traits in sound attributes , their sound quality depends a lot on the system.
Unfortunately it is true. And we can't try every thing.
We do not have solid explanations on the power cables sound. Technically we could expect that better designed and conceived equipment would be less sensitive to power cables. But the reality is different.
You must be careful to not load it past 50% of its rating in order to avoid harmonic generation.
I think we do. Its Voltage drop across the cord, in tandem with high frequency current delivery. Both quite measurable. The easiest way to measure what the power cord is doing is to measure its effect on a power amplifier. Measure the change in output power, output impedance and distortion.
The more inefficient the amplifier the more profoundly its affected by the cord. The more feedback the amp has the less its affected by the cord, since feedback allows the amp to reject that which is not the signal. So the results people get with a particular power cord can vary quite a lot from system to system, hence disagreement and debate.
The high frequency current thing has to do with the fact that power supplies have transformers, rectifiers and filter caps in them. The rectifiers only conduct when the Voltage on the filter caps is lower than that of the transformer. The caps are nearly charged up most of the time so the rectifiers only conduct for very short times at the peak of the AC waveform. How effectively the cord is able to pass current for these very brief periods says something about how well the power supply in the amp might be working.
I have done it several times. Unfortunately I could only measure differences when using power quality cables of inadequate gauge or poor connectors, that no one with some knowledge would use with power amplifiers.
Can I ask what you are saying by an "inefficient" amplifier?
The time scale we are addressing is millisecond, not nanosecond. Shunyata has carried a lot of research on this aspect and optimize their cables for such conditions, they do not sound "better" (are preferred ...) every time. How do you quantify this parameter in power cables?
Surely poor performance of power cables can sometimes be easily explained by poor technical design or assembly. But I am mainly addressing good, technically decent power cables.
Yes. Class A is less efficient. So there is more power being drawn hence a greater Voltage drop across the power cord.
Milliseconds is correct but really the risetime of the current spike is the issue, not the duration. The faster the risetime, the higher the frequency...
One area cheap cables suffer is the connections in their molded ends which can heat up. As a general rule of thumb though, if you can detect heat in the power cord at any point, the cord is being a problem. These days, thermal cameras are inexpensive so this heat is easier to detect.
Maybe some equipment, no matter the price, does not operate so well. A better cable highlight the faults in the gear. A poorly constructed cord may act as a tuning device to hide flaws.
Thanks on the loading parameters.
The nice thing about a rotary power supply, if the mains fail, you don't need all the NEC labeling or emergency shutdown infrastructure. The drive motor will stop and power off along with the utility.
Has anyone tried powering their stereo with a generator?
I can’t say I have but you would need a very large generator to not have changes in the voltage. A generator has a voltage regulation on the rotor to control the voltage output. To make it worse the frequency must remain very stable so varying loads is very much creating both freq And voltage variations. This makes everything go faster in changes.
a regen is far better then a generator unless it’s huge. if you would try a generator one method would be to shunt the load to maintain a More consistent freq and
Voltage output like used in a shunt regulator psu. Im ralph can explain better then I can.
we can complain of issues in utility power but freq is very reliable and voltage too if the service is larger then needed.
what we can’t fix is noise created both before our homes and inside.
a regen fixes this , but a good psu does too
now why one amp is ok and another is less so is a ralph answer.
power supplies are very reactive to its input power as well as its output.
I use a p10 regen but only on all but amps
but my amps are too large for any audio regen I feel
dowmsoth its two Krell amps
Ksa80b and ksa200b
Up north it’s a pair of ml no 33 amps
a regen is far better then a generator unless it’s huge. if you would try a generator one method would be to shunt the load to maintain a More consistent freq and
Voltage output like used in a shunt regulator psu. Im ralph can explain better then I can.
we can complain of issues in utility power but freq is very reliable and voltage too if the service is larger then needed.
what we can’t fix is noise created both before our homes and inside.
a regen fixes this , but a good psu does too
now why one amp is ok and another is less so is a ralph answer.
power supplies are very reactive to its input power as well as its output.
I use a p10 regen but only on all but amps
but my amps are too large for any audio regen I feel
dowmsoth its two Krell amps
Ksa80b and ksa200b
Up north it’s a pair of ml no 33 amps
It was very simple. The already present ground related noise problems of the CJ LP series amps were exacerbated. It made things worse. A person with serious hearing loss could have heard it. Interestingly CJ recommended against using a regenerator or even a power conditioner. CJ recommended using a hospital grade power strip … plug everything into the power strip and plug the power strip into the wall. Just part of CJ’s legendary “quirky charm.”
In the case of the Denon, I could discern no changes. Quiet but not very transparent or dynamic (compared to my best) before and after the regenerator. No clear benefit.
ARC Ref 75 SE/LS28Se and Ref 250 SE/Ref 6SE, both blossomed. ARC recommended running on 117.5 VAC. The regenerators set on this voltage were audibly more open sounding. Clarity and articulation of notes both improved from what was already excellent.
Burmester 911 mk3 / 088, which beat the aforementioned ARC here in my comparos, was even clearer, and more transparent.
You can debate this stuff til the cows come home … but I don’t think you can decide what’s worth the cost to you without an in home trial. PS Audio makes this easy. Of course if you prefer something else, that’s your prerogative. Your ears, your system, and your resources.
Similar threads
 | Steve Williams Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator |  | Ron Resnick Site Owner | Administrator |  | Julian (The Fixer) Website Build | Marketing Managersing |