Isolation Transformer and Balanced Power versus PS Audio Regenerator

[microstrip]

I’ll see if I can figure out how to look at them under different time intervals.

The strange thing to me is the discorrelation between the PS audio, smooth wave and the high THD.

The measurement at the sub panel is certainly better than either of the conditioners.

But this doesn’t take into account, at least for the Torus, of the high frequency, filtering it supposedly does.

I think my next step, should be listening to the system without any filtration.

Something is surely wrong with the measurements. IMO once you can't understand one of them, you should not rely on any of them.

If you want to train with the Fluke 345 you can use a power amplifier driven by a virtual generator. I calibrate my system using SpectraPlus with an USB sound card.

 

[wil]

Something is surely wrong with the measurements. IMO once you can't understand one of them, you should not rely on any of them.

That may be right and I certainly don’t have technical knowledge regarding audio or electronics.

But, the logic to me indicates that the wall and Torus measurements are easily within the window of what’s expected and are typical of what I’ve measured here for a couple of years. So the device is working properly I believe.

That being the case, there’s an unanswered question regarding why the p20 measurements are an anomoly.

Maybe ps audio measures output thd in a way that shows far lower distortion? Maybe something unique to the regenerator would explain it. And I’m not implying anything nefarious. I’m just curious.

 

[QuadDiffuser]

Was the “multi-wave” function turned off on the P20, leaving just pure sine waves to be outputted?

 

[wil]

Was the “multi-wave” function turned off on the P20, leaving just pure sine waves to be outputted?

Yes, multi wave off

 

[wil]

That may be right and I certainly don’t have technical knowledge regarding audio or electronics.

But, the logic to me indicates that the wall and Torus measurements are easily within the window of what’s expected and are typical of what I’ve measured here for a couple of years. So the device is working properly I believe.

That being the case, there’s an unanswered question regarding why the p20 measurements are an anomoly.

Maybe ps audio measures output thd in a way that shows far lower distortion? Maybe something unique to the regenerator would explain it. And I’m not implying anything nefarious. I’m just curious.

Perhaps related:

I read that ps audio measures the power plant impedance (at impressively minuscule levels) internally rather than at output.
Could there be a parallel with how they measure distortion?

 

[microstrip]

That may be right and I certainly don’t have technical knowledge regarding audio or electronics.

But, the logic to me indicates that the wall and Torus measurements are easily within the window of what’s expected and are typical of what I’ve measured here for a couple of years. So the device is working properly I believe.

That being the case, there’s an unanswered question regarding why the p20 measurements are an anomoly.

Maybe ps audio measures output thd in a way that shows far lower distortion? Maybe something unique to the regenerator would explain it. And I’m not implying anything nefarious. I’m just curious.

My analysis is different. You get what you expect on direct mains, you do not know what to expect on the Torus - no one ever measured it and they do not supply data on THD reduction and you get absurd data on on the P20. Better relying on coin tossing ... IMO unless you have a low distortion reliable measurement to cross check, this kind of debate will only fuel those who say "forget the measurements and rely on your ears".
If the P20 shows high THD it is faulty and should be serviced.

Engineers and scientists are expected to be curious and rely on facts. And avoid the placebo effect, as far as it is possible in this hobby.

 

[wil]

Measured with the SureTest Circuit Analyzer:

It confirms the published specs on P20 for both Distortion and Output Impedance

V- dist. Torus -- 4.3%. Wall -- 2.3%. P20 -- .5%
Impedence Torus -- .43 ohm Wall -- .11. P20 -- .01

So, for some reason the Fluke measure the p20 differently than the SureTest.

But the Fluke and Suretest measure the Torus and Wall similarly.

 

[microstrip]

Perhaps related:

I read that ps audio measures the power plant impedance (at impressively minuscule levels) internally rather than at output.
Could there be a parallel with how they measure distortion?

Not at all. Two very different things. In order to measure impedance you must measure current, something that must be done internally.

 

[Atmasphere]

I believe there are many filters being produced that can work well on front end, signal, data bckbone equipment. But you have to be careful to not "over filter". Or shall I say, create a sound that might sound like noise was removed, but musicality suffers.

I've been out of town since the 4th.

You can't 'over filter'. If you remove all the harmonics that exist in a sine wave, that is the ideal AC power. My surmise is such passive filters are not actually doing what is proposed.

Isolation transformers are excellent for RF noise.

I personally don't know what noise is most damaging to audio playback. It may be the power supply in your equipment does a good job with 3rd, 5th, 7th etc noise, but not so good with RF.

FWIW, the 5th harmonic. See the numerous papers by Fluke Instruments on the topic. RFI on the line is easily dealt with FWIW, even if toroidal power transformers are used. The 5th OTOH is so low the kind of chokes needed to filter it can be pretty large so its not easily dealt with at all. As I mentioned earlier it can cause power transformers to run warm and make noise, cause increased diode noise, can cause synchronous motors to run in the wrong direction...

you do not know what to expect on the Torus - no one ever measured it and they do not supply data on THD reduction

As a passive device, its incapable of reducing THD directly. Whatever distortion is on the line it passes, unless those harmonics are higher than its bandwidth.

 

[Kingrex]

I've been out of town since the 4th.

You can't 'over filter'. If you remove all the harmonics that exist in a sine wave, that is the ideal AC power. My surmise is such passive filters are not actually doing what is proposed.

I'm not arguing. And I agree, a perfect sine wave would be best.
What I mean is most filters suck the life out of the music when attached to an amp. I called that "Over Filtering". And front end equipment too. Why is it they do this. If they make the sine wave better, why is the sound getting worse.

 

[Atmasphere]

I'm not arguing. And I agree, a perfect sine wave would be best.
What I mean is most filters suck the life out of the music when attached to an amp. I called that "Over Filtering". And front end equipment too. Why is it they do this. If they make the sine wave better, why is the sound getting worse.

Its likely because they are a series resistance with the AC power, thus causing a Voltage drop. IOW for the same reason you hear differences in power cords.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I'm not arguing. And I agree, a perfect sine wave would be best.
What I mean is most filters suck the life out of the music when attached to an amp. I called that "Over Filtering". And front end equipment too. Why is it they do this. If they make the sine wave better, why is the sound getting worse.

try this filter there is a model for asymmetric and symmetric consumers.works all main voltage systems from 45hz to 65hz.is a two stage filter attention not small.max load 3000 watts.

Radio interference supression filter NFK855-16S22

Filters of the NFK855-S series are used to suppress circuit-bound interferences in AC power lines. Interference pulses or interference voltages are…

www.feas.de

 

[microstrip]

(...) As a passive device, its incapable of reducing THD directly. Whatever distortion is on the line it passes, unless those harmonics are higher than its bandwidth.

I also think so, particularly after seeing the published graph of attenuation of their NBT https://www.toruspower.com/narrow-bandwidth-technology-nbt/ . But I would like to see proper measurements.

 

[Atmasphere]

I also think so, particularly after seeing the published graph of attenuation of their NBT https://www.toruspower.com/narrow-bandwidth-technology-nbt/ . But I would like to see proper measurements.

Yes, that looks like a marketing graphic.

 

[wil]

Yes, that looks like a marketing graphic.

What is it in particular that makes you doubt what Torus is stating? The lack of specifics on how they are measuring? Something else? Too good to be true? I’m just trying understand.

 

[Atmasphere]

What is it in particular that makes you doubt what Torus is stating? The lack of specifics on how they are measuring? Something else? Too good to be true? I’m just trying understand.

"a) Standard toroid' is a clue. Not saying I'm doubting the claims BTW; just pointing out that the graphic looks like a marketing thing. You can't really know what is meant by 'standard'. I've found that toroidal power transformers vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.

 

[wil]

I also think so, particularly after seeing the published graph of attenuation of their NBT https://www.toruspower.com/narrow-bandwidth-technology-nbt/ . But I would like to see proper measurements.
View attachment 153160

What would qualify as Proper Measurements? Maybe with some digging, there is information on how Torus measures to get the above data on noise attenuation?

 

[MacF]

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[microstrip]

What would qualify as Proper Measurements?

In this particular case, a measurement made by someone with knowledge of what he is doing and being able to interpret it.

Anyone could confirm your results using an oscilloscope with FFT capabilities. Sorry I do not post on the way on doing it, but measuring the mains always involves hazard risks, unless we use a toroidal insulating transformer or a dedicated instrument.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Better for this are Interference protection transformers(Störschutz trafo german)
The secondary winding builds a L-C filter(with caps)
Noratel transformers are the best

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2.3kva version 36kg weight mobile version
Fix installation in the house 5.0kva 55kg weight
Ask at noratel for 120volt version