Equi=Tech 2RQ Versus PS Audio P10
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
- Start date
That’s the Key .. I owned the Equitech ET2Q for over 20 years.. The secondary winding has a higher output. The unit if fed 120v, will output 124-126 V, half that on each leg. They do this to keep the voltage from sagging under load. So if you lightly load it, you will get a higher voltage, even a medium load will still yield more voltage than the incoming line..
When I removed my BAT mono amps from the system, the unit kept delivering 125+ volts, which was too high for my low powered tube gear.
It seems that most companies are spec'ing transformer outputs to match the input at full load which in use they will never achieve. We spec ours to equal the input at 40% load which is far more realistic for an audio system, thus protecting connected equipment from overvoltage as you describe.
Sorry I'm late to this thread, started to explore the site again once a few vocal ratbags have left. I have an Equi=tech 1KVA unit and also a Topaz iso trans 2kVA. The Topaz with it's larger capacity has the energy to provide 'enough' power than the Equi=tech which ran out of puff at loud passages.
Have thought about connecting the Equi=tech to the source components only, and the Topaz to the pre and power amp. I started to shut down the system power and realised that separating the source components would need another GFCI (ELCB) which I didn't have to hand. Another important issue is that it could have created a differing potential in the system ground and noise could return to the wrong transformer and negate the use of the balanced system in the first place. There would need to be major change to the wiring both at the source and at the wall, so need to plan this out a little better. An off track byline.
I don't doubt that the OP measured the 3db gain and the effect was real. This is very noticeable on a Equi=tech or a balanced power supply. The amount of energy is usually in the bass. The 5th harmonic is an anti-motoring harmonic, that means for a rotating machine, the 5th acts as negative torque to what the motor produces. For a speaker, the 5th acts like a brake on the coil's movement. Remove the 5th and it's all good.
My guess is that the harmonics are not symmetrical or are cancelled out by the balanced power supply.
For the P10/P20 sounding warmer, this could be attributable to filtering or removing odd harmonics from the output, leaving even harmonics as created by tubes. The P10/P20 are inverters which inherently are common mode noise generators, with the right filtering can be removed, easiest way is with an isolation transformer. or Inductors & caps which can also clean up the square wave output of an inverter to a sine wave. This doesn't make a perfect 0% distortion sine wave, since the rest of the distortion is caused by harmonics (from the squarewave) or switching artefacts from the output stages.
Have thought about connecting the Equi=tech to the source components only, and the Topaz to the pre and power amp. I started to shut down the system power and realised that separating the source components would need another GFCI (ELCB) which I didn't have to hand. Another important issue is that it could have created a differing potential in the system ground and noise could return to the wrong transformer and negate the use of the balanced system in the first place. There would need to be major change to the wiring both at the source and at the wall, so need to plan this out a little better. An off track byline.
I don't doubt that the OP measured the 3db gain and the effect was real. This is very noticeable on a Equi=tech or a balanced power supply. The amount of energy is usually in the bass. The 5th harmonic is an anti-motoring harmonic, that means for a rotating machine, the 5th acts as negative torque to what the motor produces. For a speaker, the 5th acts like a brake on the coil's movement. Remove the 5th and it's all good.
My guess is that the harmonics are not symmetrical or are cancelled out by the balanced power supply.
For the P10/P20 sounding warmer, this could be attributable to filtering or removing odd harmonics from the output, leaving even harmonics as created by tubes. The P10/P20 are inverters which inherently are common mode noise generators, with the right filtering can be removed, easiest way is with an isolation transformer. or Inductors & caps which can also clean up the square wave output of an inverter to a sine wave. This doesn't make a perfect 0% distortion sine wave, since the rest of the distortion is caused by harmonics (from the squarewave) or switching artefacts from the output stages.
The sound is louder because the voltage on the output of the transformer is higher than the output from the P10.
I had This issue with my ET2Q which added 4-5 volts to compensate for load.. The equi-tech was already getting 124 volts from the mains In the winter months as nobody was loading the power down with HVAC units. I put a 20amp VARIAC in front of the Equitech to lower voltages for my tube amps, pre, etc..
I had to get another Balanced power transformer for my system that did not Increase the voltage too much as I don’t put much of a load on it with my current system.. Worth the effort and expense, IME.
I have a P10. I have my digital gear on it. I had to move it onto its own dedicated line. I had it on a dedicated line with a Shunyata Denali. I found it was negatively impacting the Denali and my analog gear (the Denali was feeding the P10 and it was still affecting the line when I moved it to the same wall plug as the Denali ).
I also found the adjustments for sine wave and pulse wave need to be set carefully for best (or worst) effect of the P10. It can sound bad.
I also found having SMPS's on the P10 was not a good thing, it soaked up the grunge and passed it along to components.
I found adding a PS Noise Harvester to one of the dual plugs on each zone very beneficial, those little suckers pull their weight and way more for the cost.
I also found the adjustments for sine wave and pulse wave need to be set carefully for best (or worst) effect of the P10. It can sound bad.
I also found having SMPS's on the P10 was not a good thing, it soaked up the grunge and passed it along to components.
I found adding a PS Noise Harvester to one of the dual plugs on each zone very beneficial, those little suckers pull their weight and way more for the cost.
You do pay attention well. The dinali is a very good passive filter does little of any harm . But I would not use it to feed a power conditioner as you found out.
The Regen works very well but I would use it on large power amps. I'll bet it's good on set amps .
Have you tried his multi wave ? if you have or can by a 2k bal iso tranny to feed the p10 it improves even more .
Also to me if a line conditioner can't make it your tv and cable box better , I doubt it's doing anything for our audio .
I told Paul this on his forums . I don't think he wanted it put together don't know why.
Like always each unit adds something to the reproduction. Base testing everything has to be everything plugged into the wall as a starting point you will then hear the sound el-natural as the designers of the gear intended. In fact, once using the system for days like that it does sound quite good.
I live with it and use key songs and make notes of what really stands out nicely, say a standup bass, piano, and vocals. I then hook up my conditioner and listen after the system is back on for a few hours, only then will the changes be self-evident for better or worse.
In my experience, the PS Audio Regenerators take all and just makes it even better, from top to bottom across the board, unlike others I've used that may increase the bass, bring out the highs more, push vocals more forward, the regenerator does not spotlight any one thing. The noise floor is nonexistent.
I have owned the top 5 conditioners over the years and the PS stayed. Having said that, I just heard an Equi-Core 1800Mkiii from a friend's system, and it had the same positive impact as the PS Audio in many ways at a much cheaper price and sounds more dynamic in some ways. Overall the P15 might be better, but for the money grab the 1800Mkiii. It does a whole lot, for a lot less, and is an improvement over the wall across the board.
I live with it and use key songs and make notes of what really stands out nicely, say a standup bass, piano, and vocals. I then hook up my conditioner and listen after the system is back on for a few hours, only then will the changes be self-evident for better or worse.
In my experience, the PS Audio Regenerators take all and just makes it even better, from top to bottom across the board, unlike others I've used that may increase the bass, bring out the highs more, push vocals more forward, the regenerator does not spotlight any one thing. The noise floor is nonexistent.
I have owned the top 5 conditioners over the years and the PS stayed. Having said that, I just heard an Equi-Core 1800Mkiii from a friend's system, and it had the same positive impact as the PS Audio in many ways at a much cheaper price and sounds more dynamic in some ways. Overall the P15 might be better, but for the money grab the 1800Mkiii. It does a whole lot, for a lot less, and is an improvement over the wall across the board.
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A very simple test that shows or does not show results .plug an hd tv and cable box into it. If you don't see an obvious uptick in clarity around eyes as an example . I wonder how can it be improving our audio.
Lastly has anyone proved a power cord using this method lol.
I'll sit back and wait with the crickets for replies
Lastly has anyone proved a power cord using this method lol.
I'll sit back and wait with the crickets for replies
Hi y'all. I'm a newbie and this is my first post. Happy New Year to everyone!
This thread -- which I revive -- shows why our hobby is both art and science. Intelligent people can come to opposite conclusions and others scratch their heads for good reason. Nothing is obvious, except this: if your ears notice better music, you have done well.
As I started my retirement project of finally building a good hifi system, I learned how much things had changed from when I first got interested back in high school in the mid-1970s. In those dark ages, people just hooked up machines to wall outlets and Radio Shack provided the cable.The good news back then, however, was that magazine reviews were critical endeavors using laboratory tests to check manufactuers claims. Unfortunately, that rigor seems to have gone out of style. Magazines such as the Absolute Sound pander to their advertisers. Shumyata stands atop Mount Everest even if the their power conditioners seem to ignorant me to be little more than overpriced shunts to ferrite sand.
Pressed to spend money on a new credit card to get a slew of airline miles, I took the plunge and bought an Equi=Tech 2-RQE (I'm based in Europe). Balanced power seemed the most elegant solution to the art of eliminating noise. Few people dispute that balanced XLR connectors improve signal sound compared to the RCA. I liked the Equi=Tech passive design. It should never fail, unlike, perhaps, a PS powerplant. Equi=Tech also overbuilds. My 2KV unit weighs 85 pounds, most of that military spec copper in the transformer. Equi=Tech has been building the same products for some twenty years. In my aged mind, that's a good thing. These machines got rave reviews when first released. Then the company fell on harder times, the founder having died and the new management lacking. They no longer advertise and the website is dated. However Equi=Tech did make the big Munich show this year and powered a room full of uber-expensive products that got good reviews.
The primary knock against the Equi=Tech kind of product seems to be that they run out of "puff" when delivering dynamic loads into the power amp. That may be true, at least many say so and a dealer recited that verse to me. My gosh, the instruction book of my recently-acquired MSB S201 power amp recommends that it be plugged directly into the wall. Depending on how dirty that wall power is, ignortant me thinks that may not be a good way to extract the "reference" experience this hybrid Class A zero feedback machine claims to deliver.
I am just starting to set up my system and still miss some parts. So, no chance yet to critically listen to an A/B test of wall outlet vs Equi=Tech. However, I have reasons to doubt that the dreaded lack of "puff" will happen to me. My philosophy was to start at the speakers and work backyards.I opted for a horn type speaker. Horns have advantages and disadvantages. One of the advantages is much higher efficiency. A review of the Eufrodites in Dagogo a few years ago said they could be driven by a SET amp with less than 10 watts a channel. However, it was also suggested that they can take considerably more power. With an array of 8 isobaric 8 inch woofers, plus a heavy magnet horn driver (and a dome tweeter), this suggestion stood to reason. The MSB is rated at 100 watts per channel into 8 ohms. At 48% volume, my wife started to complain from another room that it was too loud (front row of a symphony stuff). The MSB is also 85 pounds, most of that once again a massive transformer. So, between the two big transformers and the light power demand from the speakers, I am betting my dynamics will not suffer.
I will let you know when the A/B test gets carried out. No time soon, I am sorry to say. When I first switched the MSB amp on it blew the fuse in the apartment's ancient wiring. I am running an extension cord from the kitchen. Replacing the 1940s living room wiring has moved ahead of super-duper cables on my to-do list. At least this gives me a chance to do the audiophile circuit(s) right, with good circuit breakers, heavy gauge wire and nice wall outlets.
This thread -- which I revive -- shows why our hobby is both art and science. Intelligent people can come to opposite conclusions and others scratch their heads for good reason. Nothing is obvious, except this: if your ears notice better music, you have done well.
As I started my retirement project of finally building a good hifi system, I learned how much things had changed from when I first got interested back in high school in the mid-1970s. In those dark ages, people just hooked up machines to wall outlets and Radio Shack provided the cable.The good news back then, however, was that magazine reviews were critical endeavors using laboratory tests to check manufactuers claims. Unfortunately, that rigor seems to have gone out of style. Magazines such as the Absolute Sound pander to their advertisers. Shumyata stands atop Mount Everest even if the their power conditioners seem to ignorant me to be little more than overpriced shunts to ferrite sand.
Pressed to spend money on a new credit card to get a slew of airline miles, I took the plunge and bought an Equi=Tech 2-RQE (I'm based in Europe). Balanced power seemed the most elegant solution to the art of eliminating noise. Few people dispute that balanced XLR connectors improve signal sound compared to the RCA. I liked the Equi=Tech passive design. It should never fail, unlike, perhaps, a PS powerplant. Equi=Tech also overbuilds. My 2KV unit weighs 85 pounds, most of that military spec copper in the transformer. Equi=Tech has been building the same products for some twenty years. In my aged mind, that's a good thing. These machines got rave reviews when first released. Then the company fell on harder times, the founder having died and the new management lacking. They no longer advertise and the website is dated. However Equi=Tech did make the big Munich show this year and powered a room full of uber-expensive products that got good reviews.
The primary knock against the Equi=Tech kind of product seems to be that they run out of "puff" when delivering dynamic loads into the power amp. That may be true, at least many say so and a dealer recited that verse to me. My gosh, the instruction book of my recently-acquired MSB S201 power amp recommends that it be plugged directly into the wall. Depending on how dirty that wall power is, ignortant me thinks that may not be a good way to extract the "reference" experience this hybrid Class A zero feedback machine claims to deliver.
I am just starting to set up my system and still miss some parts. So, no chance yet to critically listen to an A/B test of wall outlet vs Equi=Tech. However, I have reasons to doubt that the dreaded lack of "puff" will happen to me. My philosophy was to start at the speakers and work backyards.I opted for a horn type speaker. Horns have advantages and disadvantages. One of the advantages is much higher efficiency. A review of the Eufrodites in Dagogo a few years ago said they could be driven by a SET amp with less than 10 watts a channel. However, it was also suggested that they can take considerably more power. With an array of 8 isobaric 8 inch woofers, plus a heavy magnet horn driver (and a dome tweeter), this suggestion stood to reason. The MSB is rated at 100 watts per channel into 8 ohms. At 48% volume, my wife started to complain from another room that it was too loud (front row of a symphony stuff). The MSB is also 85 pounds, most of that once again a massive transformer. So, between the two big transformers and the light power demand from the speakers, I am betting my dynamics will not suffer.
I will let you know when the A/B test gets carried out. No time soon, I am sorry to say. When I first switched the MSB amp on it blew the fuse in the apartment's ancient wiring. I am running an extension cord from the kitchen. Replacing the 1940s living room wiring has moved ahead of super-duper cables on my to-do list. At least this gives me a chance to do the audiophile circuit(s) right, with good circuit breakers, heavy gauge wire and nice wall outlets.
I’ve used Equitech AC boxes for nearly 25 years. I learned about Equitech from the pro sound world. After hearing how the Equitech killed noise and ground loops in the live concert systems I was running, I put one in my PA rack and one in my home system and have never looked back. The 2QR has been in my home system since 1998.
As for plugging power amps into it, I’ve found it to be amp and system dependent. Right now I run a low power tube amp and it sounds smoother and more open through the 2QR. With bigger SS amps, the 2QR delivered a less edgy, more textured presentation. Direct into the wall was more energetic and exciting. Whether the 2QR was robbing the amp of dynamics or stripping noise out of the signal is a matter of debate.
Provided your power amp safely operates within the current parameters of the Equitech, I say try it both ways and go with sound you like best.
Russ
As for plugging power amps into it, I’ve found it to be amp and system dependent. Right now I run a low power tube amp and it sounds smoother and more open through the 2QR. With bigger SS amps, the 2QR delivered a less edgy, more textured presentation. Direct into the wall was more energetic and exciting. Whether the 2QR was robbing the amp of dynamics or stripping noise out of the signal is a matter of debate.
Provided your power amp safely operates within the current parameters of the Equitech, I say try it both ways and go with sound you like best.
Russ
Thanks, Russ, for your comments.
I think we have a lot to learn from the pro sound world. Afterall, they make their living from this stuff. They spend money where it counts in order to succeed in a competitive world.
I have read pros that scoff at the claims made by certain high end audio cable manufacturers. They laugh at the rhapsodic testimonials. One option is Blue Jeans: this company sell "broadcast quality" cables out of Washington State at prices far below others. Might that be good enough? But that's another topic.
The MSB S201 amp should run easily within the output of the Equi=Tech 2-RQE, at least according to MSB's specifications. In standby mode it draws 320 watts. This is basically a Class A amp and so it soon warms up and stays hot to the touch even if low volume music or no music at all is playing. Standby being so energised, this gives ignorant me some confidence about the amp's intrinsic ability to handle transients. The MSB toroidal transformer is rated at 1000w, i.e. half the Equi=Tech output. I am assuming there is only one transformer even if this is not a monoblock amp. Can someone please correct me if I am wrong? Two such transformers would raise some concerns about reaching Equi=Tech's rated capacity.
Your suggestion that I A/B direct wall plug-in versus balanced power is taken on-board. Your comments make me think that I might like or not like the difference in sound made by the change, even if both methods are fully satisfactory. One can imagine swapping the amp from direct wall to balanced power depending on the music being played. I'm thinking of Dean Martin versus Daft Punk. Up to you to decide which needs more excitement or more smoothness!
Neil
I think we have a lot to learn from the pro sound world. Afterall, they make their living from this stuff. They spend money where it counts in order to succeed in a competitive world.
I have read pros that scoff at the claims made by certain high end audio cable manufacturers. They laugh at the rhapsodic testimonials. One option is Blue Jeans: this company sell "broadcast quality" cables out of Washington State at prices far below others. Might that be good enough? But that's another topic.
The MSB S201 amp should run easily within the output of the Equi=Tech 2-RQE, at least according to MSB's specifications. In standby mode it draws 320 watts. This is basically a Class A amp and so it soon warms up and stays hot to the touch even if low volume music or no music at all is playing. Standby being so energised, this gives ignorant me some confidence about the amp's intrinsic ability to handle transients. The MSB toroidal transformer is rated at 1000w, i.e. half the Equi=Tech output. I am assuming there is only one transformer even if this is not a monoblock amp. Can someone please correct me if I am wrong? Two such transformers would raise some concerns about reaching Equi=Tech's rated capacity.
Your suggestion that I A/B direct wall plug-in versus balanced power is taken on-board. Your comments make me think that I might like or not like the difference in sound made by the change, even if both methods are fully satisfactory. One can imagine swapping the amp from direct wall to balanced power depending on the music being played. I'm thinking of Dean Martin versus Daft Punk. Up to you to decide which needs more excitement or more smoothness!
Neil
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