Has the focus of the forum shifted? Is it the marketing, promotion and cheerleading arm of selected companies? Has advertising changed the landscape?

[Al M.]

Gee, people in this hobby choose a system that works for them for personal reasons and preferences. Could be value, esthetics, a particular sound. It could be based on what works best in their rooms. You may make different choices! So what? Imagine some guy happily married for 20 years and people denigrating his choice of a wife because of your particular tastes. She is too thin, too fat, not blonde, whatever. Just be happy folks are happy with their systems.

Will not happen. Fanatics, those who compulsively need to be "right", are always on a mission.

 

[Joe Whip]

True that Al. Unfortunately

 

[bonzo75]

Gee, people in this hobby choose a system that works for them for personal reasons and preferences. Could be value, esthetics, a particular sound. It could be based on what works best in their rooms. You may make different choices! So what? Imagine some guy happily married for 20 years and people denigrating his choice of a wife because of your particular tastes. She is too thin, too fat, not blonde, whatever. Just be happy folks are happy with their systems.

This is quite a misrepresentation. It is not what people choose their gear for, it is what they justify for and debate for in terms of sonics. To take your example, it is one thing to marry a woman you love and another thing to say you chose her because she is likely to win the Olympic gold medal 100m, marathon, and Ms universe

 

[Joe Whip]

Thanks for proving my point Bonzo. Well done.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Gee, people in this hobby choose a system that works for them for personal reasons and preferences. Could be value, esthetics, a particular sound. It could be based on what works best in their rooms. You may make different choices! So what? Imagine some guy happily married for 20 years and people denigrating his choice of a wife because of your particular tastes. She is too thin, too fat, not blonde, whatever. Just be happy folks are happy with their systems.

AMEN!!!

 

[sbo6]

I was trapped by Pass, Magico, and Transparent upgrades. It wasn’t a merry-go-round. It was a ladder always making progress toward my checkbook. Bonzo hammered the Pass Magico anvil and shouting “break free!“

I actually replaced fancy cabling with industrial wires, gave away acoustic treatment and threw away accessories, focusing instead on set up and increasing exposure. It was a major shift in my approach.

Neither path is better, neither is wrong, a different approach to achieve your end goal - enjoying music. ;-)

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Will not happen. Fanatics, those who compulsively need to be "right", are always on a mission.

Just look at any thread that starts with Best….Ethernet Switch…..Speakers so on and so on. Then the shills and well peddlers come out.

 

[sbo6]

No. What you learn upgrading your component as a beginner is not necessarily learning you can draw from, is my point. And if rest of upgrades happened because of trade in traps or lessons you drew from your beginner upgrades…

Thanks for your response, I can't agree. There's more to learn as a beginner in any field. Might they result in non - optimal choices, sure but still highly valuable. Upside down hockey stick.

 

[sbo6]

hearing a difference to your baseline system/component due to a change is not necessarily “gaining experience”.

Of course it is, what else would you call it? It's exactly why in our hobby one might buy an upgrade, to hear a difference. Perfect direct example where experiences yield learnings.

 

[treitz3]

Just look at any thread that starts with Best….Ethernet Switch…..Speakers so on and so on. Then the shills and well peddlers come out.

So, just because a member of this forum shares their ideas and observations of a particular product, they are now considered a shill?

That term is thrown around way to loosely here, IMO. It implies that member is getting paid with the implication of dishonesty and fraud, faking enthusiasm for some sort of scheme or basically being corrupt, manipulative, deceitful and unethical.

Words matter and that is quite the insult to those who are simply sharing their experiences of a particular product. That's the whole point of the forum, isn't it? To share ideas and information without the level of bickering and angst that other forums tend to create?

Tom

 

[Republicoftexas69]

So, just because a member of this forum shares their ideas and observations of a particular product, they are now considered a shill?

That term is thrown around way to loosely here, IMO. It implies that member is getting paid with the implication of dishonesty and fraud, faking enthusiasm for some sort of scheme or basically being corrupt, manipulative, deceitful and unethical.

Words matter and that is quite the insult to those who are simply sharing their experiences of a particular product. That's the whole point of the forum, isn't it? To share ideas and information without the level of bickering and angst that other forums tend to create?

Tom

Some yes, all no. I rarely see the word 'shill" bantered around on these pages, but then again I do not live here or moderate this forum. Also do not put words in my posts. I am out.

 

[Al M.]

So, just because a member of this forum shares their ideas and observations of a particular product, they are now considered a shill?

That term is thrown around way to loosely here, IMO. It implies that member is getting paid with the implication of dishonesty and fraud, faking enthusiasm for some sort of scheme or basically being corrupt, manipulative, deceitful and unethical.

Words matter and that is quite the insult to those who are simply sharing their experiences of a particular product. That's the whole point of the forum, isn't it? To share ideas and information without the level of bickering and angst that other forums tend to create?

Tom

Enthusiasm for something is a good thing, I agree.

The compulsive need, often accompanied with such enthusiasm, to denigrate alternative choices, in particular alternative system topologies, is a bad thing.

In this subjective hobby there is no objective "the best". Those for whom something subjectively is the best often forget that.

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks for your response, I can't agree. There's more to learn as a beginner in any field. Might they result in non - optimal choices, sure but still highly valuable. Upside down hockey stick.

I did not say you cannot learn as a beginner? I said the principles you learn as a beginner, when you are at 0, is not something you should be continuing on when you have 20 years experience, unless you assume you learned the perfect thing in your first upgrade. If you did not learn the perfect thing, you should have changed quite a bit instead of repeating the same mantra as your beginner learning.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

So, just because a member of this forum shares their ideas and observations of a particular product, they are now considered a shill?

That term is thrown around way to loosely here, IMO. It implies that member is getting paid with the implication of dishonesty and fraud, faking enthusiasm for some sort of scheme or basically being corrupt, manipulative, deceitful and unethical.

Words matter and that is quite the insult to those who are simply sharing their experiences of a particular product. That's the whole point of the forum, isn't it? To share ideas and information without the level of bickering and angst that other forums tend to create?

Tom

Guess you added getting paid.
A shill is a person who promotes a product, service, or idea while pretending to be a neutral, independent, and unbiased observer. The term carries a negative connotation because the shill's actions are deceptive and intended to mislead others for the benefit of the employer. The practice is illegal in many circumstances if it leads to fraud

 

[treitz3]

Either way you slice it, shilling is a serious accusation and my point was that it seems to be thrown around like candy. Whether it is true or not. I am not pointing out just you, forgive me if I implied that or if it was taken that way. That was not my intention. I am just saying in general, that this word is thrown around like it has no meaning. It actually does.

Tom

 

[PeterA]

Neither path is better, neither is wrong, a different approach to achieve your end goal - enjoying music. ;-)

I think only the individual knows whether or not one approach is better or worse than another at achieving his goals. Are decisions not based on that principle? I can state which is right or wrong, better or worse for me. Others can too for them. The problems come when one tells another what to do. Stepping back, it is better to not declare what is best.

 

[Elliot G.]

Dear Tom,

Either way you slice it, shilling is a serious accusation and my point was that it seems to be thrown around like candy. Whether it is true or not. I am not pointing out just you, forgive me if I implied that or if it was taken that way. That was not my intention. I am just saying in general, that this word is thrown around like it has no meaning. It actually does.

Tom

Those of us who pay for a forum all are told in straight terms that they must declare who they are and who they represent. I personally think this is fair. I don't believe that anyone should have an issue with this.
What are you in relation to your opinions certainly matters when you are a dealer so why is this criteria not required by all?

 

[Kingrex]

I think only the individual knows whether or not one approach is better or worse than another at achieving his goals. Are decisions not based on that principle? I can state which is right or wrong, better or worse for me. Others can too. The problems come when one tells another what to do.

Isn't this a contradiction to your own experience. You didn't know what was better for you until you stumbles onto it. And it is possible you stumble onto a boxed speaker like a Stenheim or Vanderstein with the correct amp and you switch again. Its possible. I do get your probably retired and running out of time and maybe money so that may not happen, but its something that does happen when people do have time and resources.
Its sort of unfortunate, but I feel like most of us are stumbling around. The only real solid tenant of good sound is good power, a good room and proper equipment setup. The selection of equipment seems to be highly variable as to the end result.

 

[PeterA]

Isn't this a contradiction to your own experience. You didn't know what was better for you until you stumbles onto it. And it is possible you stumble onto a boxed speaker like a Stenheim or Vanderstein with the correct amp and you switch again. Its possible. I do get your probably retired and running out of time and maybe money so that may not happen, but its something that does happen when people do have time and resources.
Its sort of unfortunate, but I feel like most of us are stumbling around. The only real solid tenant of good sound is good power, a good room and proper equipment setup. The selection of equipment seems to be highly variable as to the end result.

I operated under the guide of my own knowledge and experience and made decisions based on that. I always thought my choices were the right ones for me at the time. Why would someone make a decision for himself that he did not think was the right one at the time? That makes no sense.

I did not stumble upon my current system. I went to visit DDK with the intention of hearing my new turntable, the Micro Seiki, that he had found for me. I also went with the intention of hearing his various turntables and systems based on what I had read in his threads and from those who had also visited him. I went fully open to the possibility of changing my gear.

Of course anything is possible, but that is not the issue or the point. As for the rest, with respect, you are making too many assumptions.

 

[Kingrex]

You miss my point Peter. You were happy and enjoying your system. You stumbled, so to speak upon DDK and what he was doing. You didn't start out in audio knowing there were multiple types of speakers and matching amps, then go and listen to different systems for years until you really knew what the industry was about, then make one purchase and your done. You had to dump and entire life of investment into a topology you ultimately determined was wrong for you. I you did not spend time on forums and never met DDK, you might still happily enjoy what you had.