Has the focus of the forum shifted? Is it the marketing, promotion and cheerleading arm of selected companies? Has advertising changed the landscape?

[sbo6]

MMmmmmm. Not sure I am buying it. Not fully, There are some. But so many just buy the next upgrade because they can. They believe it is better. And they yarp very loud about how great it is. Most probably never tuned what they had to get the most from it. There are some who do, don't get me wrong. I would simply argue, if you looked across 100 post on someone saying something is better, 85% plus times its going to be the higher $$ unit. And that leads to the intent of my original comment in post 97. The industry says ITS BETTER. Its a lot more, but the heavens will open. For about a year, maybe 2, then you have to upgrade again because the last version was not all we said. It could be improved upon. And we did just that. So hop on the merry go round and upgrade upgrade upgrade.

IMO and IME if one is so enamored with better sound to make music sound more "real" via upgrading you're gaining experience whether you bought it just to upgrade or genuinely researched it. Either way, you're gaining experience based on your baseline system (not the same at a dealer or at a show) that can be shared here or on other forums. So whether the industry says it's better or not, and you "hop on the upgrade merry - go round" you've gained knowledge.

 

[sbo6]

Or they were just caught in upgrades and trade ins and learned nothing along the way from their beginning position except what the costlier component in the same approach does. One very intelligent thread was written on the topic

Your sentence is contradictory - If you bought a component as an upgrade you learned what the costlier component sounded like, no?

How can they learn "nothing along the way" when they've compared the original component to the upgrade?

 

[Al M.]

How can they learn "nothing along the way" when they've compared the original component to the upgrade?

Because they didn't get out of the box speaker loop and haven't learned to embrace SETs and horns and the much better sound of vinyl with the best recordings/pressings.

(Or so it goes...)

 

[Ron Resnick]

How can they learn "nothing along the way" when they've compared the original component to the upgrade?

Don't you know by know that if someone does not learn enough in this hobby to graduate past Magico/Rockport/Wilson/YG and Boulder/CH/D'Agostino/Soulution and dCS/MSB they don't know what they like, they don't know what they are doing, they don't listen to the right pressings of the right music, they are wasting their money and they are failures at this hobby?

 

[rob]

Don’t apologize your right , what just happened is that minion’s attack you and make you think

you did not attack you pointed to the obvious
I had to hit ignore on taiko lol
It’s painful to read about the next great improvement, while what happened to how amazing just last month
there is no doubt groupies jump in

I'm not really apologising. It is just too obvious what is going on, for me anyway.

Just suggesting it happens everywhere, just look at car reviews. For example, the latest Porsche GT3 or BMW CS, reviewers/youtubers sing the praise of the latest model, absolutely perfect, amazing in every way etc. Then when the new model appears 2-4 years later, then and only then they suddenly realise all the obvious and glaring faults and issues with the previous model.

Nobody is going to convince me experienced drivers with years of testing cars on road and track didn't notice the issues in the previous model.

Harry Metcalfe is one of the exceptions, managing to strike a good balance of being somewhat transparent in his appraisal while also not downright rubbishing or pointing out all the issues and thereby no longer getting access to certain brands and companies, hence loosing part of his income stream.

 

[bonzo75]

How trapped are we. Spirit seems to have experienced few horn systems that are a every day system. Frankly, I want a every day system. Not a wow that was intense. I need a break now.

Maybe we are not trapped. Maybe their are few dynamic driver systems that approach natural. Maybe their are few horn systems that are tame enough to digest on a regular basis. Maybe the problem is that with either path, getting there with off the shelf parts is hard. A upgrade from any manufacturer is usually a version of a house sound. If you feel that your system is not what you want it to be, more house sound is probably not going to get you there. The trapped is not knowing what to break away too that will.

And I would still go back to tuning the room and speakers in it. Not with expensive cables and such. Somehow setting the speaker in the place properly and using appropriate acoustic treatments. For that matter, just having a room that is foundationally correct. I have no idea if that means a concrete floor and double iso drywall or what. My assumption is it may vary depending on the speaker and the outcome you want to hear.

When did I ever refer her to horns vs cones in the above passage? Separately , regarding spirit, he has not heard that many horns, he never leaves the UK, so the only horn he and I have heard that I have liked is the General’s pnoe, and if he doesn’t like that, I know why. The rest of the “horns” he has heard, I wouldn’t take over Magico or Wilson.

You want to do your due diligence, ask him what recordings, process, time spent on his visits, videos, etc…

 

[bonzo75]

Your sentence is contradictory - If you bought a component as an upgrade you learned what the costlier component sounded like, no?

How can they learn "nothing along the way" when they've compared the original component to the upgrade?

No. What you learn upgrading your component as a beginner is not necessarily learning you can draw from, is my point. And if rest of upgrades happened because of trade in traps or lessons you drew from your beginner upgrades…

 

[rob]

Don't you know by know that if someone does not learn enough in this hobby to graduate past Magico/Rockport/Wilson/YG and Boulder/CH/D'Agostino/Soulution and dCS/MSB they don't know what they like, they don't know what they are doing, they don't listen to the right pressings of the right music, they are wasting their money and they are failures at this hobby?

That's right. They must have painted on "cloth ears", compared to my "golden ears" and deep pockets!
Even though my "golden ears" are 76 years old and i only listen to the same 30 tracks over and over because everything else sounds terrible on my 500K system.

 

[bonzo75]

Don't you know by know that if someone does not learn enough in this hobby to graduate past Magico/Rockport/Wilson/YG and Boulder/CH/D'Agostino/Soulution and dCS/MSB they don't know what they like, they don't know what they are doing, they don't listen to the right pressings of the right music, they are wasting their money and they are failures at this hobby?

If you say the right thing sarcastically, doesn’t make it wrong. In fact I welcome that you got both the gist of it and picked up sarcasm along the way. Pay me tuition fees for both, please

 

[bonzo75]

Either way, you're gaining experience based on your baseline system

hearing a difference to your baseline system/component due to a change is not necessarily “gaining experience”.

 

[bonzo75]

And I would still go back to tuning the room and speakers in it. Not with expensive cables and such. Somehow setting the speaker in the place properly and using appropriate acoustic treatments. For that matter, just having a room that is foundationally correct. I have no idea if that means a concrete floor and double iso drywall or what. My assumption is it may vary depending on the speaker and the outcome you want to hear.

I do think some of the most important things to take away in stsxerxes system might be the wall and the floor and no acoustic treatments given how a big cone performs in a small space, but changing wall etc is a bit much for people in case they don’t have it already. Plus the careful alignment of drivers to listening seat, but I personally prefer to be free to move while listening.

Also, there are speakers like Audionec Evo 2 which sound great in small rooms and are easy to set up, and can be played with everything from 20w valves to Berning quads and CH precision.

 

[AudioLibertarian]

what happened to the interesting premise of this thread? i do feel like a number of threads have resulted into the above discourse - same old school arguments/views. (last 2.5 pages). which i think many might just tune out. Seems like the OP’s message petered out after Mikey’s post?

Such development has become an inevitable fact of life on such threads here..... The original topic is usually forgotten after first 3 pages (if one is lucky, after 4 pages)!

 

[bonzo75]

. For one thing when I go to Walt Disney Concert Hall I'm not wearing headphones.

You should when you listen to videos given the quality of playback of your iMac

 

[bonzo75]

Because they didn't get out of the box speaker loop and haven't learned to embrace SETs and horns and the much better sound of vinyl with the best recordings/pressings.

(Or so it goes...)

Nice. You pay attention. There is hope.

 

[tima]

your approach of using 'shame' to get results is just not a good long term method IMHO. yes; it does serve the high efficiency/SET silo/tribe/crowd well.

You were doing fairly well in the discussion until that remark.

 

[microstrip]

The Boston dealership could not offer any advice. One of the salesman came to work on speaker set up. They sell the same speakers, and his efforts resulted in no improvement. I realized I would never buy anything from that place.

Yes, I had a lack of knowledge. Less now.

Well, nice to know.

Increasing exposure was simply hearing more alternatives to the mainstream, high-end audio industry. Components from the past and a series of systems that sounded unlike systems I had heard before.

Ok, the DDK trip.

Transparent, audio cables do indeed have very fancy connectors and they come in very fancy boxes and packaging and marketing. You have owned Lamm equipment. You should realize fully that they represent the opposite approach. It is obvious to anyone who has experience with both brands.

Again, just looking for the packing and unfortunately spreading misinformation. Curiously Transparent Audio uses standard connectors, even the Opus I owned. The boxes are industry standard card foamed boxes - in fact modest considering what we pay for them. As far as I have read your comments on Karen Summer posts, you appreciated their marketing.

As you refer, I have owned the Lamm's , listened to them with pleasure and inspected and even reverse engineered them before moving on. I will not enter your invitation to denigrate them and their marketing. Just consider that may times opposites touch each other and IMO they also have "fancy" aspects, as all expensive high-end. We are in the same boat.

I very much enjoyed my former system, especially after I learned more about set up and got rid of audio file, accessories, fancy cables, and room acoustic treatments. The system then finally showed its potential and I liked it very much. But it was the end of the road, and it was not going to get any better as it had been optimized. After exposure to something better I decided to move on.

I am happy that you are happy.

People can describe their former gear and experiences anyway they want. Who are you to tell them how they should express themselves and what opinions they should share with others?

It seems you are not prepared to debate high-end and others opinions. I only enter your natural world when you mischaracterize the mainstream high-end to promote your views on your alternative and repeatable way of living this hobby, or when addressing fundamental aspects of stereo sound reproduction, where we often disagree.

 

[bonzo75]

It seems you are not prepared to debate

to quote you in reference to you, it seems you are not prepared to debate, but like to

 

[Al M.]

Nice. You pay attention. There is hope.

Hope for what?

 

[PeterA]

In response to the original post? In my opinion,

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes

 

[Joe Whip]

Gee, people in this hobby choose a system that works for them for personal reasons and preferences. Could be value, esthetics, a particular sound. It could be based on what works best in their rooms. You may make different choices! So what? Imagine some guy happily married for 20 years and people denigrating his choice of a wife because of your particular tastes. She is too thin, too fat, not blonde, whatever. Just be happy folks are happy with their systems.