Has the focus of the forum shifted? Is it the marketing, promotion and cheerleading arm of selected companies? Has advertising changed the landscape?

[PHAA_]

I think only the individual knows whether or not one approach is better or worse than another at achieving his goals. Are decisions not based on that principle? I can state which is right or wrong, better or worse for me. Others can too for them. The problems come when one tells another what to do. Stepping back, it is better to not declare what is best.

Agree, mostly. And, would add:

I often wonder why people struggle so much with the difference between “subjective” and “objective” and, many times, purposefully conflate the two. Perhaps, it is the modern day agenda to banish any kind of objective truth while at the same time squelching “rugged” individualism naturally spilling over into every facet of life…including audiophilia, simply for the purpose of gaining monetary reward and/or (perceived) intellectual prowess.

There IS a best [objectively] in terms of measurements. For this, there can be a declared best…until it is bested.

There IS a best [for any given person, subjectively] in terms of personal preference. And, this is subject to change without notice.

The two are NOT the same. They may coincide.

Neither one is a particular evil.

Why that has to be repeated so often and why it is so often dismissed is a product of arrogance and selfishness.

If we could have forum participants acknowledge and live by that most forums would be awesome places to be IMnotsoHO. Until then, the grain of salt I need to get through many threads (and side step many attitudes) has grown larger than my house.

 

[treitz3]

Dear Tom,


Those of us who pay for a forum all are told in straight terms that they must declare who they are and who they represent. I personally think this is fair. I don't believe that anyone should have an issue with this.
What are you in relation to your opinions certainly matters when you are a dealer so why is this criteria not required by all?

It actually is, according to our TOS (#13), which can be found here >>> https://www.whatsbestforum.com/help/terms/

If any member is associated with the industry, they must disclose this in their signature. It doesn't matter if they are a paying sponsor or not, the affiliation disclosure must be in their signature. After that, the admin team places the correct designation under their avatar, for those members who do not use a desktop or laptop computer to browse the forum. It makes it easier for those folks who use handheld devices to see the industry affiliation, as signatures are not displayed on smaller hand held devices.

If anyone knows of a member who has not disclosed their industry affiliation, please report a post that member makes and explain your case. We will deal with it and either bring that member into compliance, make them a read only guest or ban them altogether, as compliance with this is not optional.

Tom

 

[bonzo75]

The only real solid tenant of good sound is good power, a good room and proper equipment setup.

Not really, it’s good records, music, and an auditory template that helps you know if things are good enough or not, the template is developed through listening live and listening enough gear

 

[bonzo75]

I you did not spend time on forums and never met DDK, you might still happily enjoy what you had.

No i did not like 95 percent of the gear I get before I started travelling, hence I went out to seek different people. Only then do you “stumble” across someone. I sought anyone who had experience or gear, many of them had radically different philosophies to each other and to me. If you own Magico and Wilson and seek out shows and people who own the same, you deserve to own Magico and Wilson

 

[wil]

Dear Tom,


Those of us who pay for a forum all are told in straight terms that they must declare who they are and who they represent. I personally think this is fair. I don't believe that anyone should have an issue with this.
What are you in relation to your opinions certainly matters when you are a dealer so why is this criteria not required by all?

Elliot, while you’re going to efforts to avoid directly calling out the subject of your grievance, you’ve made it perfectly clear several times who you’re referring to.

And there’s an implicit accusation that there is something going on that is worthy of being declared.

Your instincts seem to tell you it’s shifty. It would seem you believe someone ( who goes un-named) is being compensated?

To me, it looks like simple enthusiasm for certain products and the creators and companies behind them.

I know there are shills in this business. At the same time I’ve seen people recklessly throw around the accusation of shill when there’s nothing to substantiate it.

And when it comes down to it, the only people who have any influence with me, (or most people here), are people whose judgement I sense are worth paying attention to. And then I demo if possible, listen, and decide for myself.

 

[Iamrael]

There IS a best [objectively] in terms of measurements. For this, there can be a declared best…until it is bested.

“Best” is subjective term. Can’t have it both ways…

 

[Iamrael]

Elliot, while you’re going to efforts to avoid directly calling out the subject of your grievance, you’ve made it perfectly clear several times who you’re referring to.

As a paying industry member/advertiser here, Elliot may be bound by nda or other that preclude him from being more transparent.

 

[Kingrex]

I started out with 0 interest in equipment. I had a pile of money and wanted a stereo to enjoy music. It was a poorly designed Rega amp that caused me to investigate how to fix it. That lead me to Joe Pitman that lead me to Jazdoc that lead me to Mike. It was only after exposure to other systems I started thinking about the sonics of the playback, rather than just enjoying the music. I could have happily lived forever with my Sonus Faber Luito and Rega Osiris and RP6 TT. And a Mojo Audio streamer.
I let myself loose sight of the music for a focus on the sound. There was nothing lacking in my enjoyment of playing music with the first system I bought.

 

[Kingrex]

Not really, it’s good records, music, and an auditory template that helps you know if things are good enough or not, the template is developed through listening live and listening enough gear

Yes, I forgot to mention the value of good media.

 

[Al M.]

“Best” is subjective term. Can’t have it both ways…

No, sometimes things are objectively best. For example, the James Webb Space Telescope is objectively the most powerful telescope there is. The Large Hadron Collider is the most powerful particle collider out there. No one disputes these facts. In that sense, you can call them objectively best.

In contrast, in high-end audio, like in many human endeavors which are guided by subjective perceptions, priorities and preferences, anything "best" can only be such in a subjective manner. And regardless how much knowledge and experience someone has accumulated,, that person's opinion will always remain subjective. More informed perhaps, but still subjective.

 

[JiminGa]

It actually is, according to our TOS (#13), which can be found here >>> https://www.whatsbestforum.com/help/terms/

If any member is associated with the industry, they must disclose this in their signature. It doesn't matter if they are a paying sponsor or not, the affiliation disclosure must be in their signature. After that, the admin team places the correct designation under their avatar, for those members who do not use a desktop or laptop computer to browse the forum. It makes it easier for those folks who use handheld devices to see the industry affiliation, as signatures are not displayed on smaller hand held devices.

If anyone knows of a member who has not disclosed their industry affiliation, please report a post that member makes and explain your case. We will deal with it and either bring that member into compliance, make them a read only guest or ban them altogether, as compliance with this is not optional.

Tom

The issue is in defining “ industry affiliation”. If someone gets 55% discounts on gear that they post positively about is that an industry affiliation? Lots of people get 10% discounts, what’s the line?

 

[PHAA_]

“Best” is subjective term. Can’t have it both ways…

Thanks for proving my point. This is why forum threads devolve. It is akin to correcting someone’s typo instead of addressing the topic at hand.

So for you, I will clarify.

There is a condition of meeting an objective or coming measurably closer to that objective than a competitor aspiring to the same measured objective. I have no interest in semantics so, that is as far as I will go.

My grain of salt just got even bigger, sadly.

Cheers!

 

[Elliot G.]

Elliot, while you’re going to efforts to avoid directly calling out the subject of your grievance, you’ve made it perfectly clear several times who you’re referring to.

And there’s an implicit accusation that there is something going on that is worthy of being declared.

Your instincts seem to tell you it’s shifty. It would seem you believe someone ( who goes un-named) is being compensated?

To me, it looks like simple enthusiasm for certain products and the creators and companies behind them.

I know there are shills in this business. At the same time I’ve seen people recklessly throw around the accusation of shill when there’s nothing to substantiate it.

And when it comes down to it, the only people who have any influence with me, (or most people here), are people whose judgement I sense are worth paying attention to. And then I demo if possible, listen, and decide for myself.

What I did Will was present information that is there for everyone to read and interpret. Many see it and others don't. I am not here to start a war and call out names even if you might want that. You seem to have the point and you don't agree that is your opinion. I never used the word shill anywhere so don't put words in my mouth.
This is a very opinionated place and a place where many feel the need to protect their position and their point of view , so be it. I am entitled to mine even if you don't like it or agree.
Peace

 

[Elliot G.]

As a paying industry member/advertiser here, Elliot may be bound by nda or other that preclude him from being more transparent.

I have none of the above. You are all intelligent people , read and make up your own minds.

 

[microstrip]

(...) There IS a best [objectively] in terms of measurements. For this, there can be a declared best…until it is bested.

Curiously there isn't, although many people believe that there is such thing. Measurements is a broad word, meaning essentially objective data with meaning relative to audio performance. There are many kinds of measurements - the usual ones, reduced for most audiophiles to those carried by Stereophile, are just a limited sub set of them. Even using this extremely limited set there is no best - measurements mostly show compromises and need proper interpretation in particular circumstances.

I can't understand why they are being addressed in a post about "best" - I don't remember having seen them being used with such connotation in this forum recently. Surely debating measurements as an explanatory subject is welcome and interesting.

There IS a best [for any given person, subjectively] in terms of personal preference. And, this is subject to change without notice.

Well, in some areas I have many "best"'s and do not feel able to choose one as the "best" .

The two are NOT the same.

IMO even hard core knowledgeable objectivists accept it.

They may coincide.

Neither one is a particular evil.

Surely. We must remember that objectivists get their fundamentals from preference.

Why that has to be repeated so often and why it is so often dismissed is a product of arrogance and selfishness.

If we could have forum participants acknowledge and live by that most forums would be awesome places to be IMnotsoHO. Until then, the grain of salt I need to get through many threads (and side step many attitudes) has grown larger than my house.

In fact I do not see how this is related to our discussions.

 

[bonzo75]

You are all intelligent people

Most of them own a high end system

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I started out with 0 interest in equipment. I had a pile of money and wanted a stereo to enjoy music. It was a poorly designed Rega amp that caused me to investigate how to fix it. That lead me to Joe Pitman that lead me to Jazdoc that lead me to Mike. It was only after exposure to other systems I started thinking about the sonics of the playback, rather than just enjoying the music. I could have happily lived forever with my Sonus Faber Luito and Rega Osiris and RP6 TT. And a Mojo Audio streamer.
I let myself loose sight of the music for a focus on the sound. There was nothing lacking in my enjoyment of playing music with the first system I bought.

it's all my fault. of course. like being married. sh*t rolls down hill.

 

[Al M.]

I started out with 0 interest in equipment. I had a pile of money and wanted a stereo to enjoy music. It was a poorly designed Rega amp that caused me to investigate how to fix it. That lead me to Joe Pitman that lead me to Jazdoc that lead me to Mike. It was only after exposure to other systems I started thinking about the sonics of the playback, rather than just enjoying the music. I could have happily lived forever with my Sonus Faber Luito and Rega Osiris and RP6 TT. And a Mojo Audio streamer.
I let myself loose sight of the music for a focus on the sound. There was nothing lacking in my enjoyment of playing music with the first system I bought.

Obviously I enjoyed music before I got into this hobby, otherwise I would not have started with it.

Yet my current system provides me with a depth of insight into music and musical performance that exceeds anything I have had before. The music also has more visceral impact. Does all this lead to more musical enjoyment? You bet.

 

[pk_LA]

It actually is, according to our TOS (#13), which can be found here >>> https://www.whatsbestforum.com/help/terms/

If any member is associated with the industry, they must disclose this in their signature. It doesn't matter if they are a paying sponsor or not, the affiliation disclosure must be in their signature. After that, the admin team places the correct designation under their avatar, for those members who do not use a desktop or laptop computer to browse the forum. It makes it easier for those folks who use handheld devices to see the industry affiliation, as signatures are not displayed on smaller hand held devices.

If anyone knows of a member who has not disclosed their industry affiliation, please report a post that member makes and explain your case. We will deal with it and either bring that member into compliance, make them a read only guest or ban them altogether, as compliance with this is not optional.

Tom

If someone gets a discount or other consideration in exchange for promoting product, how would you label it? Does that person have an obligation to disclose such?

 

[Kingrex]

it's all my fault. of course. like being married. sh*t rolls down hill.

Joe Pitman started my neurosis. It was actually Jazdocs stereo that got me mosy interested as it was a more scaled and affordable system to aspire too.