Has the focus of the forum shifted? Is it the marketing, promotion and cheerleading arm of selected companies? Has advertising changed the landscape?

[Tangram]

The “ignore” button is a beautiful thing.

 

[PeterA]

maybe, but also had an elitist and smugness factor too. not a fan of labels and thinking that tries to marginalize particular groups of users. but realize some like that. it was a polarizing, silo building thread.

I understand. I was joking because Bonzo himself initiated the thread and called it very intelligent. I think it is an interesting topic. We all have our own personalities and approaches. I think of you Mike as introducing to us the concepts of “ mature system”, “very tippy top” and “warp nine”. I will leave it to others to decide whether or not those are smug or elite.

 

[PeterA]

It is what is, that is the way the audio world operates by trapping people in to an approach they can’t get out of. That’s the way I see it

I was trapped by Pass, Magico, and Transparent upgrades. It wasn’t a merry-go-round. It was a ladder always making progress toward my checkbook. Bonzo hammered the Pass Magico anvil and shouting “break free!“

I actually replaced fancy cabling with industrial wires, gave away acoustic treatment and threw away accessories, focusing instead on set up and increasing exposure. It was a major shift in my approach.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I understand. I was joking because Bonzo himself initiated the thread and called it very intelligent. I think it is an interesting topic. We all have our own personalities and approaches. I think of you Mike as introducing to us the concepts of “ mature system”, “very tippy top” and “warp nine”. I will leave it to others to decide whether or not those are smug or elite.

so you are saying in a 'Peter' way that i touch on being elitist and smug too. mature system is pretty broadly used. lots of people characterize high dynamics in large system certain ways without being elitist. tippy top maybe gets where you are going in some ways.

ok. i guess anyone who gets rhapsodic about what their system is doing might go there too from time to time.

but i don't start a thread looking down at a group, and try to make 'shame of a group' and glorifying another group, as part of our forum lingo. and you set your turntable on a very high pedestal too. apart and above others. in the most 'Peter' way. which is just another way to go there. just how it looks to me.

i see Ked's actions different than normal system pride....as it contains a target. yet i respect that Kedar wants to help people and is not intentionally being rude or offensive, even if that is part of it on the receiving end.

 

[Holmz]

…

If you wanted no feedback or dialogue, then you should have stated that. By default, you're your own worst enemy.

^that^ could be said about many people in many contexts.

Ked, do you have a link to that intelligent thread? It sounds like a very good topic.

Ron’s New System

i have used a few words to describe this general concept of liquid or liquidity. maybe grain-less or continuous get closer to my intension as these two words don't infer some sort of added warmth or smoothing or rounding. gear can be grain-less, gear can be continuous, and not add warmth.....or...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[Alrainbow]

Fair call, my post wasn't intended as a criticism. This stuff happens on pretty much all forums, no matter the product.

Don’t apologize your right , what just happened is that minion’s attack you and make you think

you did not attack you pointed to the obvious
I had to hit ignore on taiko lol
It’s painful to read about the next great improvement, while what happened to how amazing just last month
there is no doubt groupies jump in

 

[PeterA]

so you are saying in a 'Peter' way that i touch on being elitist and smug too. mature system is pretty broadly used. lots of people characterize high dynamics in large system certain ways without being elitist. tippy top maybe gets where you are going in some ways.

ok. i guess anyone who gets rhapsodic about what their system is doing might go there too from time to time.

but i don't start a thread looking down at a group, and try to make 'shame of a group' and glorifying another group, as part of our forum lingo. and you set your turntable on a very high pedestal too. apart and above others. in the most 'Peter' way. which is just another way to go there. just how it looks to me.

i see Ked's actions different than normal system pride....as it contains a target.

No Mike. What I’m saying is that each of us has hos own peculiar and distinct way of communicating. I don’t see Bonzo’s comments in that thread as much different as your comments in your various threads describing various additions to your system. I am not calling either one of you smug or elite. Those are your words.

People had all sorts of things to say about me calling my system, natural sounding. You describe your system as “mature“ , “tippy top “, and capable of “warp nine” performance.

You and I are both passionate hobbyist who love our systems. Bonzo is also passionate, but he pursues the hobby differently. As you are also fond of saying, “no right or wrong”.

 

[bonzo75]

so you are saying in a 'Peter' way that i touch on being elitist and smug too. mature system is pretty broadly used. lots of people characterize high dynamics in large system certain ways without being elitist. tippy top maybe gets where you are going in some ways.

ok. i guess anyone who gets rhapsodic about what their system is doing might go there too from time to time.

but i don't start a thread looking down at a group, and try to make 'shame of a group' and glorifying another group, as part of our forum lingo. and you set your turntable on a very high pedestal too. apart and above others. in the most 'Peter' way. which is just another way to go there. just how it looks to me.

i see Ked's actions different than normal system pride....as it contains a target.

Actually, that is not what happened in the thread. The thread was simply stating how lots of people stay trapped in audio. Of course there is a going to be a population that way. You can’t start a thread on audio learnings or any philosophy unless some people are already present in a population to give data points. Any philosophy thread is not started to target someone, but it will target someone obviously. A vinyl thread could target digital only people, for example.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

No Mike. What I’m saying is that each of us has our own peculiar and distinct way of communicating. I don’t see Bonzo’s comments in that thread as much different as your comments in your various threads describing various additions to your system. I am not calling either one of you smug or elite. Those are your words.

People had all sorts of things to say about me calling my system, natural sounding. You describe your system as “mature“ , “tippy top “, and capable of “warp nine” performance.

You and I are both passionate hobbyist who love our systems. Bonzo is also passionate, but he pursues the hobby differently. As you are also fond of saying, “no right or wrong”.

i see Ked's actions different than normal system pride....as it contains a target. yet i respect that Kedar wants to help people and is not intentionally being rude or offensive, even if that is part of it on the receiving end.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Mike has a point about the level of gear and conversions here. It is the forum for Unobtanium equipment. And I find a part of the quest to make such a system fun. Or I shouls say, punch up to that level.on a bidget. (...)

Ok.

Generally WBF is not the place to discuss a speaker that cost $6000 and really does punch above its price. Or a class D amp for $2450 that is hard for anyone to discern from a $145,000 amp. There are forums for that. I do wonder how much traffic they get?

In fact there are many well participated threads on gear around $2-6k, reasonable cost cables and accessible accessories . Even people owning expensive gear love giving advice on such gear.

Maybe to a peripheral edge of Elliots point, If I or anyone compared their $2400 class D monoblocks to some well known amps and concluded, along with other listeners, the inexpensive amp was all the expensive one, and more in some regards. And that thread took off. Maybe the thread owner would be told to knock if off. I don't know????

What is the point in speculating about our dreams?

The DIY forums are much more open and full of learning. Of course. Its DIY. Not Open Your Wallet and (insert hyperbolic words). There are some amazing engineer that have helped me in my DIY.

Comparing apples with oranges. I am a member of two DIY oriented forums. The objectives are completely different from an audio forum. And unfortunately, many times they suffer from problems related to I know it all and secrecy.

As they say, the eggs of the neighbor’s chicken are always more yellow!

 

[Kingrex]

It is what is, that is the way the audio world operates by trapping people in to an approach they can’t get out of. That’s the way I see it

How trapped are we. Spirit seems to have experienced few horn systems that are a every day system. Frankly, I want a every day system. Not a wow that was intense. I need a break now.

Maybe we are not trapped. Maybe their are few dynamic driver systems that approach natural. Maybe their are few horn systems that are tame enough to digest on a regular basis. Maybe the problem is that with either path, getting there with off the shelf parts is hard. A upgrade from any manufacturer is usually a version of a house sound. If you feel that your system is not what you want it to be, more house sound is probably not going to get you there. The trapped is not knowing what to break away too that will.

And I would still go back to tuning the room and speakers in it. Not with expensive cables and such. Somehow setting the speaker in the place properly and using appropriate acoustic treatments. For that matter, just having a room that is foundationally correct. I have no idea if that means a concrete floor and double iso drywall or what. My assumption is it may vary depending on the speaker and the outcome you want to hear.

 

[Alrainbow]

Why not headphones , if it's purist of sound can't be more than that.
Some can say what's missing but is what missing really there ?

 

[microstrip]

I was trapped by Pass, Magico, and Transparent upgrades. It wasn’t a merry-go-round. It was a ladder always making progress toward my checkbook.

Probably because of lack of knowledge and/or you were badly advised. Independently of the cycle period between manufacturer upgrades, knowledgeable audiophiles only upgrade at much more reasonable intervals. You referred that you had great listening experiences at a Boston dealers. Couldn't they be of help to you? Evolution is normal in this industry.

(...) I actually replaced fancy cabling with industrial wires, gave away acoustic treatment and threw away accessories, focusing instead on set up and increasing exposure. It was a major shift in my approach.

Nice to know, what is "increasing exposure"? BTW, why are Transparent Audio fancy cables and your Lamm 's are not fancy preamplifiers? Should WBF rename itself as fWBF? f for fancy, surely ...

I can't see why some audiophiles can't enjoy their own current style without renegading their previous beliefs.

 

[Kingrex]

Why not headphones , if it's purist of sound can't be more than that.
Some can say what's missing but is what missing really there ?

Headphones are a great tool to hear the recording, then understand if your room is resolving all that is on the recording.

 

[Iamrael]

How trapped are we. Spirit seems to have experienced few horn systems that are an every day system. Frankly, I want an every day system. Not a wow that was intense. I need a break now.

Could this have more to do with your state of mind rather than your system?

 

[microstrip]

(...) Maybe we are not trapped. Maybe their are few dynamic driver systems that approach natural. Maybe their are few horn systems that are tame enough to digest on a regular basis. Maybe the problem is that with either path, getting there with off the shelf parts is hard. A upgrade from any manufacturer is usually a version of a house sound. If you feel that your system is not what you want it to be, more house sound is probably not going to get you there. The trapped is not knowing what to break away too that will. (...)

I have written before in WBF the famous quote of Robert de Niro in Ronin - "Lady, I never walk into a place I don't know how to walk out of." We should always remember it.

And I would still go back to tuning the room and speakers in it. Not with expensive cables and such. Somehow setting the speaker in the place properly and using appropriate acoustic treatments. For that matter, just having a room that is foundationally correct. I have no idea if that means a concrete floor and double iso drywall or what. My assumption is it may vary depending on the speaker and the outcome you want to hear.

There are many ways of living this hobby. It is a surely a luxury hobby, we should be prepared for moral crisis and moments of disbelief. And saying otherwise remember that the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence! But in reality the truth is the grass is greener where you water it ...

 

[Ron Resnick]

Why not headphones , if it's purist of sound can't be more than that.
Some can say what's missing but is what missing really there ?

What's missing, for me, is almost everything I care about in trying to re-create a convincing illusion of listening to live music. For one thing when I go to Walt Disney Concert Hall I'm not wearing headphones.

 

[Kingrex]

Could this have more to do with your state of mind rather than your system?

I don't think so. Not diacounting state of mind at all. Just saying.

My experience is horns are sort of like a high performance car. 102 to 106 db efficient. Harder to tame than a laid back 82 db speaker.

 

[PeterA]

Probably because of lack of knowledge and/or you were badly advised. Independently of the cycle period between manufacturer upgrades, knowledgeable audiophiles only upgrade at much more reasonable intervals. You referred that you had great listening experiences at a Boston dealers. Couldn't they be of help to you? Evolution is normal in this industry.

The Boston dealership could not offer any advice. One of the salesman came to work on speaker set up. They sell the same speakers, and his efforts resulted in no improvement. I realized I would never buy anything from that place.

Yes, I had a lack of knowledge. Less now.

(...) I actually replaced fancy cabling with industrial wires, gave away acoustic treatment and threw away accessories, focusing instead on set up and increasing exposure. It was a major shift in my approach.

Nice to know, what is "increasing exposure"? BTW, why are Transparent Audio fancy cables and your Lamm 's are not fancy preamplifiers? Should WBF rename itself as fWBF? f for fancy, surely ...

Increasing exposure was simply hearing more alternatives to the mainstream, high-end audio industry. Components from the past and a series of systems that sounded unlike systems I had heard before.

Transparent, audio cables do indeed have very fancy connectors and they come in very fancy boxes and packaging and marketing. You have owned Lamm equipment. You should realize fully that they represent the opposite approach. It is obvious to anyone who has experience with both brands.

I can't see why some audiophiles can't enjoy their own current style without renegading their previous beliefs.

I very much enjoyed my former system, especially after I learned more about set up and got rid of audio file, accessories, fancy cables, and room acoustic treatments. The system then finally showed its potential and I liked it very much. But it was the end of the road, and it was not going to get any better as it had been optimized. After exposure to something better I decided to move on.

People can describe their former gear and experiences anyway they want. Who are you to tell them how they should express themselves and what opinions they should share with others?

 

[PeterA]

How trapped are we. Spirit seems to have experienced few horn systems that are a every day system. Frankly, I want a every day system. Not a wow that was intense. I need a break now.

I have an everyday system, and it is a corner horn based system. I usually listen to my system two or three hours a day. More after after sailing season. Zero fatigue. My horn speakers were designed 65 years ago. I think aesthetics and values were different then.