Degritter ultrasonic record cleaner

Hi y’all, just a few words on what I think is a worthy alternative to the Audio Desk Systeme and KLAudio ultrasonic cleaners.

http://degritter.com/media-kit/

I’ve been a beta tester on the Degritter for the last few weeks, and am happy to offer my opinions and answer any qs for those interested.

I believe official launch is in early May, and at this stage after a couple of quibbles in day to day use, I’m planning to keep my unit, it’s been a pretty good success, and invaluable addition to day to day life as a vinyl addict.

 

DeGritter Mark II software update is kind of nice with the new icons, prewash and of course, the rinse cycle.

 

Has anyone tried the new Degritter cleaning fluid with the black label? I’ve cleaned a bunch of records using it, and now I think I hear some veil. I used around 1.5 ml of the fluid, the program with 4 revolutions, 2 tanks, the second one with IPA. Maybe I am imagining things, will have to do further testing.

 

Has anyone tried the new Degritter cleaning fluid with the black label? I’ve cleaned a bunch of records using it, and now I think I hear some veil. I used around 1.5 ml of the fluid, the program with 4 revolutions, 2 tanks, the second one with IPA. Maybe I am imagining things, will have to do further testing.

Try just a water rinse.
There will be some cationic surfactant adhering to the record but it’s supposed to for antistatic effect.

The one to be careful of is if there’s any residual anionic surfactant on the disc as it will make something very difficult to shift when it reacts with the cationic surfactant in the new cleaner.

 

Try just a water rinse.
There will be some cationic surfactant adhering to the record but it’s supposed to for antistatic effect.

The one to be careful of is if there’s any residual anionic surfactant on the disc as it will make something very difficult to shift when it reacts with the cationic surfactant in the new cleaner.

For the benefit of those of us who didn't study chemistry, can you elaborate?

 

I always rinse a record that goes in a machine without rinse. Chemicals are left on the record. Drying does not remove them. Its bakes them in.

Rinsing is super easy. Get a Zero Water from anywhere. They are all over. Set it on a table and put a 5 gallon bucket below. Crack the dispenser as little or much as you like and rinse the record clean.

A easier way may be, get the zero water. Also get a spin clean. Don't waste time clamping the record nto the spin clean device. Get a 6 inch piece of 1/4" aluminum rod. Slip it through the spindle and drop it i to the spin.clean. Use hands to spin the record.

Records can be put on a rack to air dry after Zero water. I usually use microfiber non shedding cloth to get the heavy water off, then let the rest airdry.
Wear rubber gloves to keep oil from hands contaminating the record and micro cloth.
Tiger cloths on amazon are cheap.and work well.

 

For the benefit of those of us who didn't study chemistry, can you elaborate?

Reading the various cleaning fluid’s ingredients might help bearing in mind not to mix cationic and anionic surfactants might help keep the veil effect from occurring.
If using the black label stuff give your records a pre rinse with water if they’ve been cleaned before. I’d use my VPI for this rather than the degritter so there’s no build up in the rinsing water, though if you change the water frequently it’ll probably be OK.

 

For the benefit of those of us who didn't study chemistry, can you elaborate?

Anionic and cationic are words that can be used to characterize the electrical charge (+/-) of various cleaning compounds and thus describe the surfaces (+/-) that attract them. Cationic types (+) are are attracted to negatively charged surfaces and used to achieve anti-static properties. Anionic types (-) are used in soaps. Yeti is suggesting not to mix the two types. Unless you want to learn about the chemistry of cleaning compounds, I wouldn't worry about them further.

My suggestion is to take a pass on the Degritter cleaning fluid or at least experiment with alternatives proven successful.

- assuming the Degritter people have not given warnings against a specific alternative to their own 'Degritter cleaning fluid, consider using Tergitol 15-S-9 surfactant rather than the Degritter additive.

Tergitol 15-S-9 is pretty much the go-to cleaning compound that you add to the water in your Degritter's (and other RCMs) wash tank. (Fwiw, it is non-ionic with no net charge one way or the other.) Very little is needed and a small bottle (see link) will last years. The amount to use is based on how much water is in the Degritter wash tank and whether you do a rinse (very highly recommended) or not.

The Degritter tank is fairly small, ~1400ml. If you do not rinse, try 2 0.04ml drops or Tergitol 15-S-9, and if you do rinse, try 3 0.04ml drops. If you get a lot of foam, cut back by 1 drop. You can get precision droplets using the Nalgene 2oz drop bottle. This info comes from Neil's 'bible' which you can download as a .pdf here. See section XIV.8.5.

PS - I didn't study chemistry either.

 

and now I think I hear some veil. I used around 1.5 ml of the fluid, the program with 4 revolutions, 2 tanks, the second one with IPA. Maybe I am imagining things, will have to do further testing.

Try 1-ml and see if that removes the veiling. If not, keep in mind as @Yeti has stated, it contains a cationic surfactant that is intended to leave some residue; to leave an anti-static coating. FYI, RCA perfected an internal anti-static for records as part of the composition in 1960 - RCA Engineer Magazine, 1960 Issue 10-11, Anti-static Phonograph Records by G. P. Humfeld https://www.worldradiohistory.com/ARCHIVE-RCA/RCA-Engineer/1960-10-11.pdf.

Expanding upon what @tima has said, cationic surfactants have two primary benefits - they are extremely hygroscopic and so they are effective anti-static agents. Their residue is very effective in pulling moisture from the air (generally diminishes below about 30% relative humidity) and the water layer that forms that is ionic and dissipates static. They are common in hair care products. Cationic surfactants are also very effective anti-bacterial agents that can kill many bacteria and viruses. Just about every water-based spray 'cleaner' advertised as anti-bacterial contains one or more cationic surfactants. However, cationic surfactants are not easily rinsed (which makes them good for their intended purpose); are poor cleaning agents, and they are 'generally' incompatible with anionic surfactants, and under the right proportions anionic & cationic surfactants can form a white type of paste - i.e., the infamous Kirmuss white paste is likely a similar reaction.

Anionic surfactants are the backbone of the cleaning industry. Just about every dish and laundry detergent, the 1st (and sometimes 2nd and 3rd) ingredient is an anionic surfactant. But to be effective they need to be used at relatively high concentrations often 5X to 10X that used for nonionic surfactants. Nonionic surfactants are good as emulsifiers - they hold water and oil together. They are often combined with anionic surfactants in detergents, and you will see nonionic surfactants common in cosmetics. That is how the smooth oil-based creams keep from separating, and as cleaners are very effective in removing oils. Nonionic surfactants are compatible with all surfactants.

Note that all surfactants, are hygroscopic to some degree with cationic being the most. But the residue from each can be very different. Anionic surfactants start as flakes and the residue has the consistency of bar-soap; but they go back into solution relatively easily. Most of the nonionic surfactants that we would use, start as light weight oil, dry as lightweight oil film and again go back into solution very easily. The final residue on a record surface can over years take on the consistency heavy grease from repeated layers from a spray cleaner on say a diskwasher type brush.

With this very basic snap-shot of surfactants, the likelihood of your veiling issue being attributed to an anionic & cationic surfactant residue reaction is very remote. First, you would see junk on your stylus. Second, the proportions are not right. The 1.4-L volume of the Degritter and the ultrasonics provide a lot of dilution and do not setup the conditions that Kirmuss can do when spraying a very small amount of 'cleaner' on a large surface.

FYI - when using just nonionic surfactants, as the book says, with the DG, there is risk of foam, and you are limited to how much surfactant you can add before too much foam develops. FYI - anionic surfactants produce lots of foam when agitated. This new DG Cleaner is a very complicated product, and has many features, including low-foam, and as complicated as it is, there 'may' be some compromise in using. But, to reiterate, try 1-ml and see if the problem persists.

Good Luck,

Hope this is of some help.

Take care,
Neil

 

Has anyone compared the Mark 1 DeGritter to the KL Audio 200?

 

Hi, I'm having a problem with my Degritter MK 2. My machine has been serviced twice, and then a new Degritter model was sent to me a few days ago. My LPs from the 1960s (Mercury, RCA Living Stereo, Decca/London) sound distorted after being washed. I can only solve the problem by washing them with my VPI. Has anyone else had the same problem? Thanks for your feedback.

 

Hi, I'm having a problem with my Degritter MK 2. My machine has been serviced twice, and then a new Degritter model was sent to me a few days ago. My LPs from the 1960s (Mercury, RCA Living Stereo, Decca/London) sound distorted after being washed. I can only solve the problem by washing them with my VPI. Has anyone else had the same problem? Thanks for your feedback.

Can you say more? What is your protocol for using the Degritter 2? How do your records sound distorted?

Have you cleaned a record with your VPI that then sounds good and then recleaned it with the Degritter and heard distortion?

 

Sì, ho seguito le istruzioni del degritter e l'ho pulito. Una settimana fa mi hanno mandato un nuovo apparecchio, ma il problema è rimasto lo stesso. L'ho lavato con VPI e il disco è tornato pulito, ma dopo averlo lavato con Degritter, la distorsione è ricomparsa.

 

Sì, ho seguito le istruzioni del degritter e l'ho pulito. Una settimana fa mi hanno mandato un nuovo apparecchio, ma il problema è rimasto lo stesso. L'ho lavato con VPI e il disco è tornato pulito, ma dopo averlo lavato con Degritter, la distorsione è ricomparsa.

All are welcome. With respect, this is an English language forum.

I took the time to translate using Google. For others, here is what you replied: Yes, I followed the degritter instructions and cleaned it. A week ago, they sent me a new unit, but the problem persisted. I washed it with VPI and the record came back clean, but after washing it with the Degritter, the distortion returned.

Not much to go on there. I assume the new Degritter is operating correctly. Are you using distilled water with both the VPI and the Degritter? Do you do a clean water rinse with the Degritter?

 

Hi, I'm having a problem with my Degritter MK 2. My machine has been serviced twice, and then a new Degritter model was sent to me a few days ago. My LPs from the 1960s (Mercury, RCA Living Stereo, Decca/London) sound distorted after being washed. I can only solve the problem by washing them with my VPI. Has anyone else had the same problem? Thanks for your feedback.

What are you using in the tank? I have a mk1 but abandoned the supplied cleaning agent fairly soon because it encouraged static build up. I’ve settled on three drops of Tergikleen per tank, just enough to wet the disc but a low enough dose not to need a subsequent rinse, though the more fastidious here might not agree. Water used is distilled at home into a glass condenser and receiver. My VPI hasn’t come out of its box since I moved three years ago.

 

All are welcome. With respect, this is an English language forum.

I took the time to translate using Google. For others, here is what you replied: Yes, I followed the degritter instructions and cleaned it. A week ago, they sent me a new unit, but the problem persisted. I washed it with VPI and the record came back clean, but after washing it with the Degritter, the distortion returned.

Not much to go on there. I assume the new Degritter is operating correctly. Are you using distilled water with both the VPI and the Degritter? Do you do a clean water rinse with the Degritter?

All are welcome. With respect, this is an English language forum.

I took the time to translate using Google. For others, here is what you replied: Yes, I followed the degritter instructions and cleaned it. A week ago, they sent me a new unit, but the problem persisted. I washed it with VPI and the record came back clean, but after washing it with the Degritter, the distortion returned.

Not much to go on there. I assume the new Degritter is operating correctly. Are you using distilled water with both the VPI and the Degritter? Do you do a clean water rinse with the Degritter?

Sorry, I use reverse osmosis water and double-wash it. My records sound dirty and distorted, but they're clean if I wash them with VPI. I think I'll sell it; it only has 11 washes. Very disappointed.

 

Are your filters fresh? Are you storing the water prior to washing? When I was using certain filters, during warmer weather there was some sort of buildup (bacteria?) that I could hear as crackling on the record after cleaning. After playing a couple of times that crackling was "pushed" away. But that was enough to move me away from those filters.

The fact that the VPI is "fixing" a problem suggests to me that the water is probably at fault - either from contaminants after filtering, or because the internals of the Degritter need cleaning. Given that the Degritter is new it seems unlikely to be the cause.

Take a few drops of your water and put onto a mirrored surface and allow it to evaporate. Is there any visible residue left behind?

The Degritters do have their own issues to deal with, but "dirty and distorted" records after cleaning is not the typical experience.
Vacuum cleaners, like the VPI, are good workhorses, but they don't get the record as clean as an ultrasonic AND they have their own issues - cross contamination from mat/velvet strips that require attention to get best results.

 

The machine is new, the filters are new, and the water is ultrapure reverse osmosis water, free of ions, bacteria, and viruses. My hypothesis is that the degritter dissolves the dirt at the bottom of the groove but isn't able to remove it while the VPI vacuums it up.

Are your filters fresh? Are you storing the water prior to washing? When I was using certain filters, during warmer weather there was some sort of buildup (bacteria?) that I could hear as crackling on the record after cleaning. After playing a couple of times that crackling was "pushed" away. But that was enough to move me away from those filters.

The fact that the VPI is "fixing" a problem suggests to me that the water is probably at fault - either from contaminants after filtering, or because the internals of the Degritter need cleaning. Given that the Degritter is new it seems unlikely to be the cause.

Take a few drops of your water and put onto a mirrored surface and allow it to evaporate. Is there any visible residue left behind?

The Degritters do have their own issues to deal with, but "dirty and distorted" records after cleaning is not the typical experience.
Vacuum cleaners, like the VPI, are good workhorses, but they don't get the record as clean as an ultrasonic AND they have their own issues - cross contamination from mat/velvet strips that require attention to get best results.

The machine is new, the filters are new, and the water is ultrapure reverse osmosis water, free of ions, bacteria, and viruses. My hypothesis is that the degritter dissolves the dirt at the bottom of the groove but isn't able to remove it while the VPI vacuums it up.

 

The machine is new, the filters are new, and the water is ultrapure reverse osmosis water, free of ions, bacteria, and viruses.

Did you try the residue test? Dry some water on a clean mirrored/silver surface to see whether anything is left behind?

My hypothesis is that the degritter dissolves the dirt at the bottom of the groove but isn't able to remove it while the VPI vacuums it up.

That's the opposite of most people's experience. Vacuum is good for surface dirt and some groove removal, but to get into the deepest parts of the grooves with machine cleaning you really need ultrasonics. Typically, you might use the vacuum as a pre-clean to remove the worst dirt and debris and finish with the ultrasonics.

Perhaps the Degritter is faulty. Does the water warm up during use? If not, the ultrasonics may not even be running. But even then, with pure water you wouldn't expect added noise.

 

Get a water tester and see if something is happening to your water during a run. Is it possible some component of the machine is breaking down and contaminating the water?

https://a.co/d/cpVesLS

It should read less than 3.5 to have good water.

 

The machine is new, the filters are new, and the water is ultrapure reverse osmosis water, free of ions, bacteria, and viruses. My hypothesis is that the degritter dissolves the dirt at the bottom of the groove but isn't able to remove it while the VPI vacuums it up.

That sounds like a reasonable hypothesis and from what you've said thus far my speculation is that the record has residue on it after the wash. While the Degritter has filters, they are only so effective. When the record drys, remaining residue from the water on the record gets dried onto the record.

If I recall correctly the Degritter II has a second tank for a clean water rinse -- there is a reason they added that function. I think you swap in the rinse tank after the wash. From my experience, rinsing is a very important step. Ideally the rinse tank should take distilled or purified water and be changed regularly. Then dry with the Degritter after the rinse.

Are you rinsing with the Degritter II? If no, then try that with a fresh tank of distilled or pure water. If yes, consider an alternative: Although it is a bit inconvenient, wash a record in the ultrasonic Degritter, do not dry it, then use the VPI to do a clean water rinse immediately after the wash. No need to re-wash on the VPI. You may want to swish the rinse water around the record before vacuuming.

PS @djsina2 's suggestion to get a TDS meter is worthwhile.