New R2R tapes of Jazz at the Pawnshop from AudioNautes

dminches

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Oct 22, 2011
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Interesting. So the production chain is:
Master -> Safety Master -> Production Master -> (Many) plays -> Customer Copy
According to @sonicflare on YT, we lose about 6dB per copy.

This means that the vinyl album is a more direct copy of the Master.

It would be interesting to compare the sound quality on a top-tier TT (eg, Nagra, Air Force 0 or 1, SAT) with a top-tier R2R.

From which tape is the vinyl cut, the Master?
 

Zeotrope

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Feb 11, 2021
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From which tape is the vinyl cut, the Master?
I believe the 2XHD albums are cut from the Master or copy of the Master.
My point is that thousands of records can be stamped from one father/mother; but you can’t record thousands of tapes from the same tape — you would severely degrade the sound if the same tape was played thousands of times.
So they’ll make x copies and play those y times to get x * y albums to sell.
 
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Johan K

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Forgive me not running reel to reel, but I have the 2xHD version on vinyl, and it is awesome sounding at my place… -like as I was going the 200km from here to Stockholm and listen live… Just saying ;).

/ Jk
 

Zeotrope

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Forgive me not running reel to reel, but I have the 2xHD version on vinyl, and it is awesome sounding at my place… -like as I was going the 200km from here to Stockholm and listen live… Just saying ;).

/ Jk
Agree!
Also, zero surface noise on my copy at least. (On a related note, my vinyl front end has lower noise than my digital, and that’s astonishing when you think of how low noise the Taiko Extreme is).
 
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Johan K

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Agree!
Also, zero surface noise on my copy at least. (On a related note, my vinyl front end has lower noise than my digital, and that’s astonishing when you think of how low noise the Taiko Extreme is).
Very cool indeed! Thank you for that interesting information:).
 
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Foxbat

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Jun 11, 2020
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Guys... there are millions upon millions of pieces of music out there... why listen to the same mediocre piece over and over again?

I got tired of it back in the eighties, and recently I decided to try again, due to all this new interest. I could not finish even one track.
 

Ampexed

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May 2, 2023
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Guys... there are millions upon millions of pieces of music out there... why listen to the same mediocre piece over and over again?

I got tired of it back in the eighties, and recently I decided to try again, due to all this new interest. I could not finish even one track.
That's kind of what I thought too. I was never impressed with this album, even back when it first came out. And frankly the recording, while nice, isn't earth shattering either. Oh well.
 

Edward Pong

Industry Expert
Jun 24, 2013
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I'm perplexed at the idea of chasing the same old recordings, even famous ones, when there some new recordings that can run circles around these older recordings. Of course, this is only my simple view, and no disrespect intended to those who collect recordings this way!

I have the 1st pressing of the Jacqueline du Pre's Elgar Cello Concerto, likely a few more pressings, a CD & I recently bought the tape from Horch House, because I was curious... it's nice, but looking at all three of these, I wondered why I did it...

Will we be chasing these same, even older recordings 20-30 yrs from now???
There should be a changing of the guard!

Ed
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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Of the three JATP tapes that I’ve listened to, the recent Late Night reissue from 2XHD is the best. And that’s saying a lot considering the quality of the two AudioNautes releases (JATP 1/2).

IMG_0847.jpeg
 

Zeotrope

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Of the three JATP tapes that I’ve listened to, the recent Late Night reissue from 2XHD is the best. And that’s saying a lot considering the quality of the two AudioNautes releases (JATP 1/2).

View attachment 119322
All of René’s albums at 2XHD are excellent. I have most of them on digital and they are all great.
 

adrianywu

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Nov 15, 2021
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Interesting. So the production chain is:
Master -> Safety Master -> Production Master -> (Many) plays -> Customer Copy
According to @sonicflare on YT, we lose about 6dB per copy.

This means that the vinyl album is a more direct copy of the Master.

It would be interesting to compare the sound quality on a top-tier TT (eg, Nagra, Air Force 0 or 1, SAT) with a top-tier R2R.
Both the safety master and the production master were made directly from the edited work part. This is at least one generation lower than what was typically used to cut lacquer. The major studios normally made studio masters from the edited work part, which is then stored away. The studio masters were used to make distribution masters to be sent to mastering facilities for cutting lacquer. Copying the tapes result in a 3dB increase in noise if Dolby is not used. Dynamic range and frequency response are generally preserved if the machines have been set up properly.
 

adrianywu

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Nov 15, 2021
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I'm perplexed at the idea of chasing the same old recordings, even famous ones, when there some new recordings that can run circles around these older recordings. Of course, this is only my simple view, and no disrespect intended to those who collect recordings this way!

I have the 1st pressing of the Jacqueline du Pre's Elgar Cello Concerto, likely a few more pressings, a CD & I recently bought the tape from Horch House, because I was curious... it's nice, but looking at all three of these, I wondered why I did it...

Will we be chasing these same, even older recordings 20-30 yrs from now???
There should be a changing of the guard!

Ed
Several friends came round to my place this weekend. My friend's wife was one of the most popular singer of her generation in the Chinese speaking world, and she brought a couple of master tapes she made in the late 1970s that was never released. I made a copy and also converted it to DSD, and we listened to the result. I also played them a tape of Charles Munch's 1954 RCA recording of the Symphonie Fantastique. My tape was copied from a friend's production master, which was on acetate stock but still in good shape. After hearing the tape, we all wondered whether there really was any progress (in sound quality) at all in music recording in the last 70 years.
 
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Zeotrope

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Very interesting, @adrianywu.
To your point about progress in sound quality in music recording in ~70 years, I couldn’t agree more. To add a personal anecdote: I have only compared my 1930s RCA 1443 field coil midrange (600-8000Hz) with a conical horn to the Wilson XVX, and the Wilson was not better. These field coil monsters (each driver weighs close to 50 lbs) still have no equal.

In terms of reel tape: how do they make hundreds or thousands of copies, for say Norah Jones‘ album on tape? Do they play the distribution copy (itself a copy of a copy of the Master) thousands of times? That can’t be, as the tape would degrade after a few hundred plays. They must make several copies of the distribution copy, and in turn play those copies dozens(?) of times to make the albums they sell.
 

Foxbat

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Jun 11, 2020
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Blame it on multi-miking... it is the economy, stupid... as setting up a system with as few microphones as possible is huge undertaking.

Here is a bit of "how".

 

Edward Pong

Industry Expert
Jun 24, 2013
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Totally agree.
In the golden years of Decca orchestra recordings in the late 50's & early 60's, mainly the Decca tree of 3 mikes, some accent mikes & as Larry states in his Decca book, they mixed down in real time to record on 2 track Studer B62s, 15ips at 396nW/m NAB...
There are no better (more natural sounding) orchestra recordings than those early SXLs....IMHO.

After all, we all only have 2 ears!
 

adrianywu

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Nov 15, 2021
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Very interesting, @adrianywu.
To your point about progress in sound quality in music recording in ~70 years, I couldn’t agree more. To add a personal anecdote: I have only compared my 1930s RCA 1443 field coil midrange (600-8000Hz) with a conical horn to the Wilson XVX, and the Wilson was not better. These field coil monsters (each driver weighs close to 50 lbs) still have no equal.

In terms of reel tape: how do they make hundreds or thousands of copies, for say Norah Jones‘ album on tape? Do they play the distribution copy (itself a copy of a copy of the Master) thousands of times? That can’t be, as the tape would degrade after a few hundred plays. They must make several copies of the distribution copy, and in turn play those copies dozens(?) of times to make the albums they sell.
You mean the Analogue Productions Norah Jones tape ? They took the analogue studio master tape (the recording was made on an A820) and made a 1/2" copy, I think at 30ips or it could be 15 ips. They used this copy to make the commercial products. They have a bank of ATR102 fed through a splitter, I think 10 in parallel. Each time they run a tape through, they can make 10 copies. On a professional machine with tension control, you can easily play a tape 200 times without losing quality. I don't know the highest number of copies of one product that Chad has sold, but I suspect it would not reach four figures.
In the old days, when records were sold in the millions of copies (for pop albums), they would make a production master, and used this to run off dozens or even hundreds of distribution masters to be sent to the mastering houses all over the world. The duplication room at Abbey Road, for example, has a bank of eight A80s, I have read somewhere.
 
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adrianywu

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Nov 15, 2021
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Totally agree.
In the golden years of Decca orchestra recordings in the late 50's & early 60's, mainly the Decca tree of 3 mikes, some accent mikes & as Larry states in his Decca book, they mixed down in real time to record on 2 track Studer B62s, 15ips at 396nW/m NAB...
There are no better (more natural sounding) orchestra recordings than those early SXLs....IMHO.

After all, we all only have 2 ears!
Indeed, we all aspire to the level of excellence attained by Wilkie, Roy Wallace, Gordon Perry and co. Alas, Kingsway Hall is no more.......
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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i've owned 4 reels of 15ips 1/4" of JITPS for 13+ years now. great sound. really fine. listened recently thru the ATR-102/MR-70 and they have a new level of excellence to my ears. have some other 60's and 70's tapes that are very fine too.

but the best of Ed's Ultra Analog tapes are right there in terms of sound quality. smaller scale relatively simple performances but tip top sound.

it does not need to be old. does need to be tape. probably large scale classical great sounding tapes might be only in the past. love to see DG take the mix down tapes from the Quad 70's TOS performances and make tapes available from those. could be stellar with the production path they have.
 
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