A $42,000 transport.

[Al M.]

Again, I'm reading all these rationalizations why people stick to 16/44, and I don't get it. Even from a purely musical appreciation standpoint, it doesn't make sense to me. Why wouldn't you want to explore hi-res, even if it's "the same old repertoire"? It doesn't make sense to me. Specially in the classical domain, where most of the hi-res is actually good and proper, unlike some of the early stuff put out in rock/jazz, that were proven to be fraudulent upsampling...

Isn't this supposed to be "what's best"? Well, that particular Mahler 6 might sound "best" on hi-res/DSD. So why are you denying yourself the experience/pleasure of that? In the name of what?

It's not that there aren't DACs out there, at all price points, that will do 16/44 just as good as hi-res, so again, it's not like you're sacrificing your collection of CDs in favor of a handful of hi-res files...

It simply does not compute

It does compute perfectly for me, Alex, even if you may disagree. To get file replay right I don't believe you can get away with cheap solutions. You may be able to get it right -- at a price (and no, I don't believe you can get away with an investment of 2-3 K, compared to a good transport). With the limited resources that I have, I'd rather put my money into other upgrades, like recently, cables. With such upgrades I get so much better reproduction of Redbook CD -- where all the music is -- than before. And without such upgrades hi-res would also not sound good enough either. It would be lose-lose if I were to chase after hi-res at the expense of more important system upgrades. And that certainly wouldn't be "what's best". I have bigger fish to fry than high-res -- really. Much bigger fish.

Again you may disagree, but that's your opinion. Fortunately, when it comes to my listening experience, I make the decisions. And you make yours when it comes to your listening experience, as it should be.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

As far as I understand the SGM is optimized for delivery of data over USB - not the best choice for someone having a Vivaldi upsampler.

my point was that if one wants optimal streaming of music from Tidal or the like (which certainly can sound amazing on the Select II), possibly an ultimate USB server has more upside. I'm not saying that this is for certain, as maybe Ethernet streaming is as good or better, or maybe the dCs approach is better? but USB servers might be the right answer if you are asking the right question?

for everyone equally? of course not. but just because a USB server has no relevancy for someone as they currently view the digital landscape does not mean it might not be part of their future.

hey, it's no secret I'm about to compare the SGM over USB to the new MSB Select II Ethernet renderer. so clearly my mind is open to where the best performance might come from.

 

[asiufy]

Yes, most of the music I listen only comes nowadays in 16/44. Some is available in SACD and I have found that the Vivaldi transport sounds better playing physical SACDs than DSD files - and good SACDs are in general better sounding than CDs.

WBF is mainly a source of entertainment, information and exchange of opinions on high-end equipment. And sure it helps me enjoying my music. But my musical preferences did not change because of it.

I will give you an example. Sometimes I read about the history of an orchestra or conductor. Then for a period I research, buy and listen to recordings by them. Look for example to the recordings of Carlos Kleiber, considered the greatest conductor of all time. Unless you want to listen just to Beethoven 5th and 7th, avaliable in 96/24, you have listen to CD's or mostly to poor pressed LP's.

Try getting the works of Ligeti in HiRez ...

BTW, I have Roon, Tidal HQ and a NAS server. However they are not my preferred source.

Hey, you *do* play with streaming, so you're not really the kind I was talking about Not being your preferred source is fine, at least you *have it* as a source, and hopefully, a valid tool.

Going by your example, and I've been through it, with Tidal, you can listen to several of that given conductor's performances, and then just purchase (either on CD, hi-res, vinyl or combinations of) the ones you find musically interesting. I understand if people don't use Tidal to judge absolute SQ, but at least use it as a tool for music discovery!

I do have some Ligeti (not hi-res), but let's say that now, inspired by your mention, I wanted to check some more. If I was of the "CD only, no streaming" disposition, I'd head over to my record store and/or online store, see what they have, and (fingers crossed), buy some CDs randomly and hope for the best. Compare that with the Tidal experience outlined above, and we've exemplified why I don't get the *addition* of streaming to one's arsenal.

 

[asiufy]

We could follow Alex's advice and just dabble in all of it, allowing it to peacefully coexist in our systems. That seems fine as long as one can figure it all out.

That would really make me happy! I love to see people's reactions when I hand them an iPad with Roon, and let them play around with it. Most of the time, they end up late for an appointment, so engrossed they get into the experience!

And just to make sure I got my point across... The intention behind my advice was not to "convert" people, or get them to move away from whatever source they current use/prefer, or even use SQ as a benefit. It's really to broaden people's horizons, and get them to enjoy *more* music, in a more convenient manner, one which might even be inclusive for their family!

As for "figuring it out", I still haven't figured out how to set up a damn turntable, but you can probably do it with your eyes closed and one hand behind your back!

A knowledgeable dealer can certainly help in that aspect, even in the preliminary stage, by determining which digital/streaming product is right for you. I surely used my old dealer's help back in Brazil when it came time to fiddle with turntables and cartridges and such


cheers,
alex

 

[Al M.]

That would really make me happy! I love to see people's reactions when I hand them an iPad with Roon, and let them play around with it. Most of the time, they end up late for an appointment, so engrossed they get into the experience!

I have seen playing with an iPad for music selection many times, and done it myself too. It doesn't entice me. But perhaps, that makes me the other part of "most of the time".

 

[PeterA]

That would really make me happy! I love to see people's reactions when I hand them an iPad with Roon, and let them play around with it. Most of the time, they end up late for an appointment, so engrossed they get into the experience!

And just to make sure I got my point across... The intention behind my advice was not to "convert" people, or get them to move away from whatever source they current use/prefer, or even use SQ as a benefit. It's really to broaden people's horizons, and get them to enjoy *more* music, in a more convenient manner, one which might even be inclusive for their family!

As for "figuring it out", I still haven't figured out how to set up a damn turntable, but you can probably do it with your eyes closed and one hand behind your back!

A knowledgeable dealer can certainly help in that aspect, even in the preliminary stage, by determining which digital/streaming product is right for you. I surely used my old dealer's help back in Brazil when it came time to fiddle with turntables and cartridges and such


cheers,
alex

I don't know Alex. On the one hand you seem like a "live and let live" kind of guy. That's a nice attitude for a dealer. You say you don't want to convert anyone and whatever they do is fine by you. But then, you strongly suggest, recommend even, that people try these new delivery services so that they can enjoy more music, expand their horizons. You sound like you know what is good for them and what is in their best interest. Is that your intention, because that is how your last series of posts come across to me. This is not the "live and let live" attitude. Forgive me if I don't jump on the recommendation from a dealer about what is good for me and "even be inclusive of their family!" Those kinds of decisions are for me to make. Sorry.

As for my reactions when handed an iPad with Roon: this is done routinely by my dealer in Boston. I stare at the screen, trying to figure it out, keep swiping, keep tapping and perhaps music will start playing. Then I have to figure out how to control the volume. I can't always find the music I want to listen to. I've tried it, and I don't like it. One of my buddies uses an iPad for his digital. He hands it to me if he leaves the room. I just put it down until he comes back. Engrossing is not how I would describe the experience. I'm sure others love it, and that is fine with me. It does not seem to be for everybody, though. Perhaps it is a generational thing, who knows?

 

[Al M.]

I don't know Alex. On the one hand you seem like a "live and let live" kind of guy. That's a nice attitude for a dealer. You say you don't want to convert anyone and whatever they do is fine by you. But then, you strongly suggest, recommend even, that people try these new delivery services so that they can enjoy more music, expand their horizons. You sound like you know what is good for them and what is in their best interest. Is that your intention, because that is how your last series of posts come across to me. This is not the "live and let live" attitude. Forgive me if I don't jump on the recommendation from a dealer about what is good for me and "even be inclusive of their family!" Those kinds of decisions are for me to make. Sorry.

As for my reactions when handed an iPad with Roon: this is done routinely by my dealer in Boston. I stare at the screen, trying to figure it out, keep swiping, keep tapping and perhaps music will start playing. Then I have to figure out how to control the volume. I can't always find the music I want to listen to. I've tried it, and I don't like it. One of my buddies uses an iPad for his digital. He hands it to me if he leaves the room. I just put it down until he comes back. Engrossing is not how I would describe the experience. I'm sure others love it, and that is fine with me. It does not seem to be for everybody, though. Perhaps it is a generational thing, who knows?

Well said, Peter.

In my recent conversations with friends (including you) we agreed again how intensely personal high end audio is (as is also obvious from the great diversity of our systems). You would expect that a dealer would recognize and live by this very fundamental fact, if he wants to be successful.

 

[jeromelang]

Of late, I've been using a steamer to play ripped dsd files from usb thumb drive in the office.

The experience of using my Samsung phone to choose music is exhilarating.

On the streamer and via the accompanied phone app, I can jump straight to the track I want, and get the sound quality that I can be satisfied with, which I can't always get with an optical disc transport (unless I refresh the player prior to playing, and provided the player's front panel control allows me to directly cue up the desired track to play without leaving a memory imprint before play commences).

However, making music files playback sounding good depends on a couple of things:

1) The way the files were ripped from its original carrier optical disc.
My friend helped me ripped various SACD discs with a few variations in procedure during the ripping process. All the resultant files sound noticeably "different".

2) Some streamers have a memory erase function just prior to subsequent track commences playing.
(Similar to the way YouTube videos is played via most devices)
These streamers tend to sound more open, more dynamic, and correspondingly more natural and musical sounding.
They tend to allow listeners to want to hear the entirety of the track and the entire album.
You just don't get tired of listening to the album again and again.
Other streamers that don't erase track memory prior to the next track playing (even more expensive ones) tend to sound dry, small, and uninviting, and subconsciously induce the listeners to keep jumping from one track to another.

That said, some (not all) optical disc players allow users to erase memory (power refreshing) prior to playing. And some optical disc players (not all) allow users to directly cue up the desired tacks to play without chalking up track memory in the player. If allowed in the best condition, optical disc playback is still my instrument of choice at home, for sound quality reasons.

 

[Al M.]

It's not that there aren't DACs out there, at all price points, that will do 16/44 just as good as hi-res, so again, it's not like you're sacrificing your collection of CDs in favor of a handful of hi-res files...

And by the way, Alex, this is a debatable issue. A few years ago, before I bought the Berkeley DAC, I auditioned two cheaper, well regarded DACs, and was gravely disappointed that my then 20 year old Wadia 12 DAC squarely beat them in some areas, such as drama, liveliness and freedom of coloration (these DACs were better in the bass, for sure).

Then I heard that a number of cheaper DACs these days are actually optimized for hi-res at the expense of 16/44, which would explain the puzzling letdown against my old Wadia DAC on Redbook CD.

 

[jeromelang]

I am looking for a streamer that output dsd via optical (DoP) suitable for use with the v2 dac2x.

Are there any yet?

 

[asiufy]

I don't know Alex. On the one hand you seem like a "live and let live" kind of guy. That's a nice attitude for a dealer. You say you don't want to convert anyone and whatever they do is fine by you. But then, you strongly suggest, recommend even, that people try these new delivery services so that they can enjoy more music, expand their horizons. You sound like you know what is good for them and what is in their best interest. Is that your intention, because that is how your last series of posts come across to me. This is not the "live and let live" attitude. Forgive me if I don't jump on the recommendation from a dealer about what is good for me and "even be inclusive of their family!" Those kinds of decisions are for me to make. Sorry.

As for my reactions when handed an iPad with Roon: this is done routinely by my dealer in Boston. I stare at the screen, trying to figure it out, keep swiping, keep tapping and perhaps music will start playing. Then I have to figure out how to control the volume. I can't always find the music I want to listen to. I've tried it, and I don't like it. One of my buddies uses an iPad for his digital. He hands it to me if he leaves the room. I just put it down until he comes back. Engrossing is not how I would describe the experience. I'm sure others love it, and that is fine with me. It does not seem to be for everybody, though. Perhaps it is a generational thing, who knows?

Perhaps the fact that I'm also a dealer is not helping matters. I'd do the same if I wasn't, matter of fact I did when I had my setup back in Brazil. I can't help but being enthusiastic about stuff. You guys take to the forums and talk about stuff you're happy with, like you did with your KL Audio cleaning machine. I don't construe your threads as anything but someone truly happy and satisfied with a product/experience, and not someone "pushing" for anything.

Again, maybe because I'm also dealer, anything I write is being taken as "shilling" or "pushing". Perhaps it's my way of writing and expressing myself, but I did emphasize that in no way, shape or form I meant to impose anything on anybody. I'm just manifesting my enthusiasm for something, extoiling its virtues, and inviting folks to give it a go.

If you tell me you were not engrossed by the iPad/Roon experience, I'm totally fine with it, but this is the first time I've read you write about it! Now I know you didn't like it, which is perfectly fine. I've enough friends and clients with such diverse taste and listening habits that I've learned not to impose anything on anybody. I see my task, as an audiophile friend first, and now as a dealer, is to try and help and show what's possible. To allow people to have a go at it. If they give it an honest chance and they didn't like it, I completely understand it.

It's not a "generational thing". It's just that how we listen to music is *extremely* personal. Even how we *organize* our collection is personal. I have no pretense of imposing anything on anybody. I just offered my advice, based on my own personal tastes and observations "in the field" (so to speak). The comment about the family was simply one of those observations. I've set up plenty of systems in living rooms, and I've been thanked many times over for how everybody in the house uses and loves it. Again, nothing sinister about it, just an observation on what's out there.

cheers,
alex

 

[spiritofmusic]

Alex, you don't have anything to apologise for
Like Peter, I'm all thumbs when it comes to using an IPad to find and control music
As per my previous post, a lot in the modern world feels a bit alien and non intuitive to me, and finding/playing music via a keypad can be added to the list
But Peter and I would both be super enthusiastic geeing someone along to use a tt, even if we heard the potential user was throwing their hands up trying to take an lp out of the sleeve, cue up the stylus, and play the darned thing without destroying the cantilever
I've had non analog people in my room who find this procedure as daunting/off putting as me and Peter do struggling at arm's length with an IPad
But maybe unlike Peter, I'm determined to try and get past my reticence, I do know the reward of finding new music in a new way has got to be worth me getting out of my safe space

 

[spiritofmusic]

Where I agree with Al is that probably only the best will do when it comes to streaming
I've heard too many streaming solutions with that awful metallic tinge to the sound
And having heard SGM truly sound excellent
I can imagine only this kind of option, with excellent SQ and intuitive interface, would be sufficiently convincing for me to make the leap

 

[morricab]

Well said, Peter.

In my recent conversations with friends (including you) we agreed again how intensely personal high end audio is (as is also obvious from the great diversity of our systems). You would expect that a dealer would recognize and live by this very fundamental fact, if he wants to be successful.

Of course it is personal but many audiophiles don't know really what they are looking for in the sound of a system...until they hear it somewhere else. A really good dealer knows what most are *really* looking for even if they don't know it themselves. Steering them towards it without bruising egos is the hard part I would say. That said, most dealers have no clue either...

 

[bonzo75]

Where I agree with Al is that probably only the best will do when it comes to streaming
I've heard too many streaming solutions with that awful metallic tinge to the sound
And having heard SGM truly sound excellent
I can imagine only this kind of option, with excellent SQ and intuitive interface, would be sufficiently convincing for me to make the leap

Which other streaming solutions, apart from Justin’s old laptop and Bill’s auralic aries (both which have that metallic tinge)? Aurender doesn't, and there are other streaming solutions from Melco, CAD, Antipodes. There is a low cost Intona, SOTM, W4S USB reclocker with LPS’ that Elberoth proposed as an alternative to W20 (which three people I know preferred to SGM, though SGM improves steadily, that is their nature), and there are all these rednet etc solutions. IMO it is misleading to make such statements without a high level of compares. dCS uses a network bridge via AES, Lampi uses a tubed SPDIF output. And then there is the Ethernet, which would be my preferred way forward given the cost

 

[Al M.]

Of course it is personal but many audiophiles don't know really what they are looking for in the sound of a system...until they hear it somewhere else.

That is very true. And when people have no reference in the form of unamplified live music, it becomes even more tricky. Then they may be aimlessly blowing in the wind of personal preferences and tastes, which may change all the time depending on what systems they get exposed to.

But even among people with unamplified live music as reference, the diverse approaches to high end are extremely personal.

 

[spiritofmusic]

You're right Ked, my comments probably are misleading
I've had some experience of Melco and Aurender and Aries, and none matched anywhere near what I hear w SGM at Blue58
That's the top and bottom of my experience, and at this point I'll bow out of streamer comparisons
For me, it takes a lot to keep me interested and on the page
The Aurender, Melco and Aries from my limited experience really don't make me want to give up silver discs, the SGM goes a long way towards and in many ways beyond convergence with cd

 

[bonzo75]

You're right Ked, my comments probably are misleading
I've had some experience of Melco and Aurender and Aries, and none matched anywhere near what I hear w SGM at Blue58
That's the top and bottom of my experience, and at this point I'll bow out of streamer comparisons
For me, it takes a lot to keep me interested and on the page
The Aurender, Melco and Aries from my limited experience really don't make me want to give up silver discs, the SGM goes a long way towards and in many ways beyond convergence with cd

Compares? Aurender w20? There are many Aurenders

To clarify, I am not saying melco etc are better than SGM. But you are blanket saying they all have a metallic tinge.

 

[853guy]

That is very true. And when people have no reference in the form of unamplified live music, it becomes even more tricky. Then they may be aimlessly blowing in the wind of personal preferences and tastes, which may change all the time depending on what systems they get exposed to.

But even among people with unamplified live music as reference, the diverse approaches to high end are extremely personal.

Hello everyone,

Yes, I think that’s true.

When it comes to the delivery of digital content, we live in an age in which the formats have expanded beyond physical media to encompass file-based downloads and virtual streaming. And while it’s true that even during physical media’s heyday there were alternatives (DCC, DAT, Mini-Disc - suppress your guffaws if you must), they were all tied to dedicated hardware solutions, often with non-compatibility across formats.

As I see it, we have two somewhat intersecting issues that I think are being discussed here.

1) Musical content relative to format; and 2) interaction with that format; neither of which have anything to do with sound quality.

I love, and still buy physical media (both digital and analogue). However, a portion of the music I love and am continuing to discover is not being released physically. I can download it, or stream it. The likelihood of us including a server-based solution is therefore very high. However, some of the music I love will never ever make it to streaming services, nor be available as a higher-res download, in which case retaining the original physical copy seems prudent despite being limited to 44.1K (I have very little in the way of SACDs, mainly because only a small portion of the music I listen to is available on that format justifying the investment in a SACD player and I’ve never found a SACD player I truly loved).

The question for me apropos the OP is: Does that make a physical CD spinner redundant?

I don’t know that answer to that. I like interacting with CD covers and reading liner notes and appreciating the aesthetic of cover art and graphic design. I’m fully cognisant of the reality that CDs can be ripped, and the “convenience” that entails, but personally, I’ve never found it inconvenient to search for a CD or a piece of vinyl, and there’s part of me that actually enjoys browsing a physical library, much in the same way as I do interacting with real bookstores.

Eventually though, we will need to rationalise the purchase of a system in which digital media must be played. Let’s just put sound quality aside for the moment. While yes, virtual media will be streamed (if indeed streaming services are still a “thing” by then), and yes, downloaded files will be played back via a server, given the likelihood we will still have an extensive CD collection, until tested in the real-world I can’t say ahead of time that I might not still prefer to load a physical CD atop a mechanism and push a physical button to play it versus ripping that CD to a hard-drive and interacting with it via a piece of software.

But because it would be silly to ignore sound quality altogether, at some point I will need to ask myself whether the server would not be better utilised in the playback of both file-based/virtual content as well as physical media ripped and stored to hard-drives and accessed via software on a remote tablet. And until I do a real world comparison with a dedicated CD transport versus the server of choice in my system in which the variables of power supply, grounding, connection and software settings are consistent and controlled, I can’t rule out the possibility we still might invest in a dedicated CD transport.

I would like to say that although I’ve experienced the EVO432 server that’s impressed me both times I’ve heard it in a full Aries Cerat system and that logically, it makes sense financially speaking to invest in just a server and DAC, I have no idea how much of an impact the server was having on the quality of the playback I experienced relative to the DAC. And although I heard none of the problems related to a server-based system I have with lesser alternatives, my suspicion is that no server makes up for weaknesses in a DAC, no matter how configurable that same server may be.

Which brings me to the conclusion that purchase of a dedicated CD spinner just to play CDs cannot yet be ruled out - not only because of a potential subjective increase in sound quality but also because it confers a degree of enjoyment apropos interaction not derived from a server/tablet.

For me, sound quality is one thing; enjoyment of interaction another. That they have a degree of overlap is partly why I think this thread exists, and why right now, I can’t state a priori we would not spend the money on something many consider redundant. This of course, from an individual who has Nakamichi cassette decks saved to a watch list on eBay.

Best,

853guy

 

[spiritofmusic]

Not my intention Ked to tar Aurender and Melco w the metallic edge criticism
Cheap streamers at Justin, Vic and elsewhere have that "dentist's drill" quality
Aurender and Melco (and yes, I'm unable to say which generations and which dacs/ancillaries I cannot say) much better than that, just not a sound that inspired me
Other than they didn't push me towards a need to investigate more
SGM a very different experience for me
CAD is the one other streamer/dac I really liked the sound of, and have promised to investigate further