Modern speakers vs Vintage speakers

[je2a3]

Listening to the G.I.P. Laboratory Monitor 1 was one of the hi-fi highlights of my recent visit to Manila.

Click here for the article + more pics

 

[No Regrets]

Listening to the G.I.P. Laboratory Monitor 1 was one of the hi-fi highlights of my recent visit to Manila.

Click here for the article + more pics

Beautiful looking amps

 

[je2a3]

Beautiful looking amps

Thank you! I built them in 2011, here's the back story.

 

[Lautreamont]

I have seen deteriorated Yamaha NS-1000 drivers. They’re certainly not pure beryllium. They are plastic with beryllium plating. And sounds plastic. Big and much better Yamaha NS -2000 is not marginally different which I used for a while (below).
View attachment 126659View attachment 126660
Yamaha’s beryllium has nothing to do with TAD 4003 or 4001 or modern counterparts .

As far as I am aware the Yamaha NS-2000 was developed as an ambitious project where Japanese engineers aimed to design a speaker that behaved like a musical instrument – especially a piano. That makes sense, since Yamaha is famous for their pianos - I actually have a Yamaha piano myself from their golden era in piano production (1980s).

I have never heard them myself but I'm actually on the lookout for a pair in Denmark. I think they will be a suitable match for my Sansui AU 9500. A friend of mine, Fabio, said this about the NS-2000:

"The speakers are built in real cherry wood (very rare) and use beryllium drivers, still considered among the best ever made. They combine lightning-fast response (close to electrostatics) with huge dynamics and incredible precision in tone and soundstage.

The NS-2000 is linear and neutral enough to serve as a studio monitor, but without sounding harsh or “in-your-face.” Instead, they deliver a natural, musical presentation full of detail, where even the smallest nuances in timbre, attack, dynamics, and ambience are revealed.

The only weak point is the crossover, originally made with electrolytic capacitors. With upgraded components, however, they perform even better – many users report they truly open up with high-quality filters."

All in all, the Yamaha NS-2000 is considered one of the very best vintage speakers, and many believe they still surpass most of today’s loudspeaker production."

I would be glad if you could elaborate on your experience.

 

[mtemur]

As far as I am aware the Yamaha NS-2000 was developed as an ambitious project where Japanese engineers aimed to design a speaker that behaved like a musical instrument – especially a piano. That makes sense, since Yamaha is famous for their pianos - I actually have a Yamaha piano myself from their golden era in piano production (1980s).

I have never heard them myself but I'm actually on the lookout for a pair in Denmark. I think they will be a suitable match for my Sansui AU 9500. A friend of mine, Fabio, said this about the NS-2000:

"The speakers are built in real cherry wood (very rare) and use beryllium drivers, still considered among the best ever made. They combine lightning-fast response (close to electrostatics) with huge dynamics and incredible precision in tone and soundstage.

The NS-2000 is linear and neutral enough to serve as a studio monitor, but without sounding harsh or “in-your-face.” Instead, they deliver a natural, musical presentation full of detail, where even the smallest nuances in timbre, attack, dynamics, and ambience are revealed.

The only weak point is the crossover, originally made with electrolytic capacitors. With upgraded components, however, they perform even better – many users report they truly open up with high-quality filters."

All in all, the Yamaha NS-2000 is considered one of the very best vintage speakers, and many believe they still surpass most of today’s loudspeaker production."

I would be glad if you could elaborate on your experience.

I wouldn’t call that an accurate description. IMHO, they’re definitely improved over the NS-1000, but still don’t sound particularly good. As I mentioned before, Yamaha NS-1000 and NS-2000 speakers use plastic drivers with a beryllium coating, rather than pure beryllium drivers like those found in better designs. On top of that, they use film capacitors rather than electrolytics, as far as I know.

 

[DasguteOhr]

As far as I am aware the Yamaha NS-2000 was developed as an ambitious project where Japanese engineers aimed to design a speaker that behaved like a musical instrument – especially a piano. That makes sense, since Yamaha is famous for their pianos - I actually have a Yamaha piano myself from their golden era in piano production (1980s).

I have never heard them myself but I'm actually on the lookout for a pair in Denmark. I think they will be a suitable match for my Sansui AU 9500. A friend of mine, Fabio, said this about the NS-2000:

"The speakers are built in real cherry wood (very rare) and use beryllium drivers, still considered among the best ever made. They combine lightning-fast response (close to electrostatics) with huge dynamics and incredible precision in tone and soundstage.

The NS-2000 is linear and neutral enough to serve as a studio monitor, but without sounding harsh or “in-your-face.” Instead, they deliver a natural, musical presentation full of detail, where even the smallest nuances in timbre, attack, dynamics, and ambience are revealed.

The only weak point is the crossover, originally made with electrolytic capacitors. With upgraded components, however, they perform even better – many users report they truly open up with high-quality filters."

All in all, the Yamaha NS-2000 is considered one of the very best vintage speakers, and many believe they still surpass most of today’s loudspeaker production."

I would be glad if you could elaborate on your experience.

1974 the first beryllium tweeter& dome midrange driver in the world.
Evil tongues claim that TAD bought diaphragms from Yamaha in 1975 before developing their own. The Xover is Achilles' heel. Many electrolytic caps. Refurbish them, and you have a very good speaker. NS 2000 13" bass driver goes down to 30hz, ns 1000 goes down to 50hz need a subwoofer

Here troel done some xover mods on a ns 1000 perhaps you can use some of his insights. Congrats, Sansui amps from these era—a fantastic sounding device. Beautiful tone.

Yamaha-NS1000

P.S berylium cantilever too

 

[bonzo75]

1974 the first beryllium tweeter& dome midrange driver in the world.
Evil tongues claim that TAD bought diaphragms from Yamaha in 1975 before developing their own. The Xover is Achilles' heel. Many electrolytic caps. Refurbish them, and you have a very good speaker. NS 2000 13" bass driver goes down to 30hz, ns 1000 goes down to 50hz need a subwoofer

Here troel done some xover mods on a ns 1000 perhaps you can use some of his insights. Congrats, Sansui amps from these era—a fantastic sounding device. Beautiful tone.

Yamaha-NS1000

P.S berylium cantilever too

Be was first used as a diaphragm by Goto

 

[DasguteOhr]

Be was first used as a diaphragm by Goto

So far, I've only seen titanium and duraluminium diaphragms available for purchase. Recently, an SG 188 Ti was on sale at the audiomarkt germany, used for 4.6k€. It's possible there are some made of berylium, perhaps in Japan.

 

[bonzo75]

So far, I've only seen titanium and duraluminium diaphragms available for purchase. Recently, an SG 188 Ti was on sale at the audiomarkt germany, used for 4.6k€. It's possible there are some made of berylium, perhaps in Japan.

Goto discontinued Be after cost of Be went up think it was sometime in the early 2000. They still used it for their most expensive models

 

[mtemur]

Dear @DasguteOhr,

Yamaha’s so-called beryllium drivers are actually something like plastic, similar to many others on the market. That doesn’t automatically make them garbage, though. When a driver is truly made from beryllium, it’s usually advertised as “pure beryllium.”

I’m not entirely sure, but I think the Morel beryllium tweeter isn’t pure beryllium either—yet it still sounds good to me. The same goes for carbon fiber: many “carbon fiber” drivers and products are really plastic-like materials. In my opinion, genuine carbon fiber is quite rare.

For example, the Yamaha NS-2000 actually had a real carbon fiber woofer, but the overall sound was still disappointing.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Dear @DasguteOhr,

Yamaha’s so-called beryllium drivers are actually something like plastic, similar to many others on the market. That doesn’t automatically make them garbage, though. When a driver is truly made from beryllium, it’s usually advertised as “pure beryllium.”

I’m not entirely sure, but I think the Morel beryllium tweeter isn’t pure beryllium either—yet it still sounds good to me. The same goes for carbon fiber: many “carbon fiber” drivers and products are really plastic-like materials. In my opinion, genuine carbon fiber is quite rare.

For example, the Yamaha NS-2000 actually had a real carbon fiber woofer, but the overall sound was still disappointing.

I think that makes any question superfluous, and you should listen to the speakers with xover components that meet their specifications and not with 40-year-old components that no longer hold any value.

P.S
If anyone near Germany has a Yamaha mc 1S cartridge, I would like to hear

 

[Lautreamont]

Dear all.

Thanks for sharing your informative insights on the Yamaha speaker. As I mentioned I havn't had the pleasure to listen to the speaker myself but as an amateur musician I care deeply about natural timbre and transient speed. Fabio, my friend, emphasizes the speakers almost resonant qualities (whilst not being a resonant speaker at all). He too is a classical guitarist and therefore I tend to trust his word when it comes to great sound.

I was not aware of the qualities of beryllium diaphragms before reading about the Yamaha speakers, but the material does sound intriguing. Are there speaker drivers using pure beryllium diaphragms?

 

[bonzo75]

I have heard the modded Yamaha dual woofer FLH. With a 211. 6681b driver, Altec multicell. Woofer S6215HT. was not good, though with vintage that isn’t saying much as you can’t say what mods were/were not causing it based on a sample size of 1

 

[mtemur]

I think that makes any question superfluous, and you should listen to the speakers with xover components that meet their specifications and not with 40-year-old components that no longer hold any value.View attachment 158830

P.S
If anyone near Germany has a Yamaha mc 1S cartridge, I would like to hearView attachment 158831

The Yamaha NS-2000 uses film capacitors that don’t drift out of spec with age. The NS-1000, on the other hand, is full of electrolytics that inevitably deteriorate over time—I’ve seen the crossovers myself, so I know.

So do yourself a favor and stop idolizing those speakers. And spare me the lectures about NS-2000 speakers and Yamaha beryllium drivers. I’ve actually owned and used them. You haven’t.

 

[Lautreamont]

The Yamaha NS-2000 uses film capacitors that don’t drift out of spec with age. The NS-1000, on the other hand, is full of electrolytics that inevitably deteriorate over time—I’ve seen the crossovers myself, so I know.

So do yourself a favor and stop idolizing those speakers. And spare me the lectures about NS-2000 speakers and Yamaha beryllium drivers. I’ve actually owned and used them. You haven’t.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to "lecture" you about Yamaha. I was merely curious about your experiences since my friend have been so fond those speakers.

It seems that some vintage speaker models are outstanding: Jordan Watts units, vintage Altec, Klangfilm horns and a lot more! I was just trying to chip in the conversation.

 

[DasguteOhr]

The Yamaha NS-2000 uses film capacitors that don’t drift out of spec with age. The NS-1000, on the other hand, is full of electrolytics that inevitably deteriorate over time—I’ve seen the crossovers myself, so I know.

So do yourself a favor and stop idolizing those speakers. And spare me the lectures about NS-2000 speakers and Yamaha beryllium drivers. I’ve actually owned and used them. You haven’t.

No they use mp capacitor they age just like electrolytic capacitors. MKT - MKP do not age and are self-healing.

You don't really believe that Yamaha is allowed to write nonsense on its website without anyone objecting. Shaking my head, greetings.

 

[mtemur]

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to "lecture" you about Yamaha. I was merely curious about your experiences since my friend have been so fond those speakers.

It seems that some vintage speaker models are outstanding: Jordan Watts units, vintage Altec, Klangfilm horns and a lot more! I was just trying to chip in the conversation.

No, it wasn’t meant for you. Thank you for sharing your experiences by the way.

 

[bonzo75]

No they use mp capacitor they age just like electrolytic capacitors. MKT - MKP do not age and are self-healing.
View attachment 158835
You don't really believe that Yamaha is allowed to write nonsense on its website without anyone objecting. Shaking my head, greetings.

NS2000 has film in oil caps not lytics per those who know the subject

 

[DasguteOhr]

NS2000 has film in oil caps not lytics per those who know the subject

In your little world, maybe, but in the real world, these MP capacitors are paper capacitors soaked in resin. They dry out eventually. That's why it's important to check them or replace them immediately with MKP or aluminum in oil. Believe me or not, these are MP capacitors, such as those used as motor starting capacitors.
exsample Bosch mp capacitor




P.S
The bass driver requires 88uF. Few had such capacitors back then, mostly electrolytic capacitors. That was high-end.

 

[analogsa]

No they use mp capacitor they age just like electrolytic capacitors.

Pure speculation. These are Japanese caps, neither Bosch nor Siemens. They may be MP, although not very likely, considering the year of manufacture. I have very similarly looking Siemens caps which are polyprops in oil, so we can only hazard guesses what's inside these cans.

As for MP caps, some of the Siemens MP i have, from the sixties, are among the best sounding caps i have ever come across, especially in the midrange. They have worked for decades at high polarising voltages and still have not developed any significant leakage. Capacitance is also as advertised. At the generally low voltages applied to speaker networks good quality MP caps may last for centuries.

Ironically, entire batches of Solen PP from the early nineties turned into dead shorts just sitting pretty on the shelf. I have a few.