How do you know when you are done?

[Al M.]

I do not find suspicion and malicious gossip as an acceptable way of debating sound reproduction in WBF. But I am always happy to discuss identified facts and systems.

Yes, assumptions, assumptions, and twisting of opinions. It's tiring, isn't it?

Not directly to Rensselaer, but for example I have been accused of not liking the sound of vinyl because I am digital-only in my system and have outlined reasons why I do not have vinyl in my system. Notwithstanding the fact that I have stated many, many times that I enjoy vinyl in others' systems and have never said anything critical about the sound of vinyl at its best.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, assumptions, assumptions, and twisting of opinions. It's tiring, isn't it?

Not directly to Rensselaer, but for example I have been accused of not liking the sound of vinyl because I am digital-only in my system and have outlined reasons why I do not have vinyl in my system. Notwithstanding the fact that I have stated many, many times that I enjoy vinyl in others' systems and have never said anything critical about the sound of vinyl at its best.

Those were not the points debated. No one discussed why you are not on owning vinyl (or a speaker you like but can’t afford or cannot fit in), nor is anyone saying you said it was bad. The issue is, you are not accepting vinyl is just sonically better (and of course set up, recording caveats)

 

[Al M.]

You think it’s intentional, as in trying to sabotage?
Can you reference an example?

I wouldn't call it sabotage. Just stirring the pot because they can't help themselves.

 

[Al M.]

Those were not the points debated. No one discussed why you are not on owning vinyl (or a speaker you like but can’t afford or cannot fit in), nor is anyone saying you said it was bad. The issue is, you are not accepting vinyl is just sonically better (and of course set up, recording caveats)

About 10 years ago I used to emphatically say that the sound of vinyl is better, based on what I heard at the time (there are numerous old posts of mine on WBF that will testify to that). I called it as I saw it, without bias towards digital even though for my own system I am a digital-only guy.

Yet digital did improve and, as I heard it, step by step the sonic advantages of vinyl did not hold anymore. Again, throughout I kept calling it as I saw it.

So why should I now accept that vinyl is still better? Just because you say so and have the "undeniable objective truth"?

 

[Iamrael]

A myth created by ignorance and perpetuated by cartoons. Crows are not inherently drawn to shiny objects, but their intelligence and curiosity sometimes make them interact with them. It’s more about exploration than attraction.

You should be proud that your Lamm's have the same dark sinister color than such intelligent birds ...

Hey Micro,
I really appreciate your perspectives/insights and philosophical thought on many of your posts.
In the case of Crows ^^^ that you share as if it just rolled off the top of your mind come from a long history of diverse study or from a quick google on “Shiny objects attract crows.”?

 

[microstrip]

Hey Micro,
I really appreciate your perspectives/insights and philosophical thought on many of your posts.
In the case of Crows ^^^ that you share as if it just rolled off the top of your mind come from a long history of diverse study or from a quick google on “Shiny objects attract crows.”?

No , a good friend spends more time watching birds than I spend listening to music and I owned a country house in a crowd zone some years ago. My professional life proportionate me meeting very diverse and interesting people - long ago I was asked about analyzing birdsong using FFT ... But, yes, I confirmed with ChatGPT before posting.

BTW, in the garden facing me we have a solitary owl, so I also know that the myth that owls drink olive oil from cemetery lamps is not true ...

We learn a lot from live experience, and surely modern search tools and AI can help those who have knowledge and know how to use it properly.

 

[wil]

Here is the real reason why analog threads are more civilized:

Vinyl-first audiophiles are always, for whatever reasons, better or worse ones, interested in comparisons of digital to vinyl. That is how they, unintentionally or more often intentionally, foul up digital threads and make them acrimonious. That happened, for example, recently with a dCS Varese thread that ultimately grew very long mostly because of that.

Digital-first audiophiles on the other hand are usually not that interested in a comparison digital vs vinyl. That is why they leave analog threads alone, they just have no interest in needlessly screwing them up.

Vinyl-first audiophiles then practice some beating their own chest that their analog threads are so civilized, while they are the ones screwing up the digital threads and making them uncivilized.

It's too funny, really.

If it was just digital-first people discussing, the digital threads would remain civilized. There are such threads, in fact.

***

Digital-first audiophiles also usually don't start threads dedicated from the start to a debate of digital vs analog.

Vinyl-first audiophiles are usually the ones starting such acrimonious threads. Here are two examples, the first one with an intentionally and unnecessarily provocative title that is just silly if you ask me:

Why, oh why, does vinyl continue to blow away digital?

It makes no scientific sense. And I am nothing if not a diehard scientist with a PhD in computer science to boot, having spent a large part of my career teaching in one of the world’s greatest PhD programs in CS, and now working at one of the world”s leading software firms in the Bay Area. I’m...

www.whatsbestforum.com

Done with digital

I am done with digital. After having suffered thru every digital format available over the years, and never liking the sound of any of it, I am putting all my time, money and effort into my analog front-ends (turntable and tapedeck). How many of you have a similar story to tell?

www.whatsbestforum.com

Yes, wash-repeat-wash.

 

[Rensselaer]

I do not find suspicion and malicious gossip as an acceptable way of debating sound reproduction in WBF. But I am always happy to discuss identified facts and systems.

A malicious gossip? I suggest you get off your high horse and stop suspecting malicious intent in anything you don't agree with.

 

[Iamrael]

Thanks for your honesty…..are you saying that you had already known specifically about the crows before google and just needed to confirm what you already knew? or…..?
I have a Japanese garden in my back yard with a Koi Pond. I have Trumpet Vines to enhance the beauty of the landscape and to attract hummingbirds which my mom loved and collected related art.

No , a good friend spends more time watching birds than I spend listening to music and I owned a country house in a crowd zone some years ago. My professional life proportionate me meeting very diverse and interesting people - long ago I was asked about analyzing birdsong using FFT ... But, yes, I confirmed with ChatGPT before posting.

BTW, in the garden facing me we have a solitary owl, so I also know that the myth that owls drink olive oil from cemetery lamps is not true ...

We learn a lot from live experience, and surely modern search tools and AI can help those who have knowledge and know how to use it properly.

Hummingbirds can remember each and every source of pollen they’ve partaken!
I also remember in Jr. High School a bird shit on my friends bike seat.

 

[JiminGa]

The amount of information that digital is able to handle is superior to tape - I am not addressing direct cut LPs. This means that the current sound engineer practices to create a digital recording are different nowadays. In my experience and knowledge - I am ignoring pleasantness or preference, digital shows more information more accurately. Stereo sound reproduction is a balance of accuracy , but also of hiding technical tricks. Excessive information exposition will spoil our illusion.

It is known that common acoustic instrument recordings do not carry enough phase information to provide acceptable depth information. Do you know how sound engineers manipulate depth inside the soundstage ?

Digital and analog formats are not equivalent. It took a long time before sound engineers could adapt to do digital.

BTW, the F. Toole book does not address specifically digital, but prepares us to understand general stereo matters - surely not the high-end audio that is purposely forgotten for good reasons.

let’s agree to disagree. Unless I’m misunderstanding what your saying the speaker doesn’t give a f___ how the soundstage information was created it just needs to be capable of recreating it in all cases. In 50 years of this I have never heard someone say to me “this amp/speaker or whatever is better for vinyl than digital” or the opposite. There are WAY more important factors in choosing electronics or speakers. I do know plenty of people who bought “warm” gear to make poor digital recordings more listenable and perhaps you are advocating a more audiophile acceptable version of that. Any great speaker will provide all the necessary information to make both digital and vinyl sound great. I do not advocate any gear that introduces any colorations or can’t extract enough information to make a proper soundstage regardless of source. If you still disagree please list for me the speakers you think are best for digital and which are best for vinyl. OR are you just saying that in your opinion you need better speakers to properly relay soundstage information from digital sources? In that case I would simply say buy the better speaker regardless so this doesn’t affect my decision either.

 

[Kingrex]

Also, sorry I do not loose my time in videos, but I am always happy to read something we can quote and write about.

I bet there is an AI that would take any video and give you a written transcription.

 

[microstrip]

let’s agree to disagree. Unless I’m misunderstanding what your saying the speaker doesn’t give a f___ how the soundstage information was created it just needs to be capable of recreating it in all cases. In 50 years of this I have never heard someone say to me “this amp/speaker or whatever is better for vinyl than digital” or the opposite. There are WAY more important factors in choosing electronics or speakers.

Surely I am happy to have your disagreement and disagree with you. I would however suggest that if you are interested in the subject at any time to look for opinions of speaker and amplifier manufacturers referring how digital influenced their designs. We are not forced to agree with them , but is always interesting to read about it. I also remember reading about it in the PSAudio forum.

I do know plenty of people who bought “warm” gear to make poor digital recordings more listenable and perhaps you are advocating a more audiophile acceptable version of that. Any great speaker will provide all the necessary information to make both digital and vinyl sound great. I do not advocate any gear that introduces any colorations or can’t extract enough information to make a proper soundstage regardless of source.

I am not addressing "warmness". Just information compatibility. Do you agree that digital shows more and more true information than vinyl? Probably It is the critical point of disagreement.

If you still disagree please list for me the speakers you think are best for digital and which are best for vinyl.

Sorry, I will avoid referring to specif brands and models limitations or qualities - it will attract the fury of owners or haters. BTW, I find the same for amplifiers, not juts for speakers. It is a dangerous analogy, but IMO vinyl needs more sound stage illumination than digital.

OR are you just saying that in your opinion you need better speakers to properly relay soundstage information from digital sources? In that case I would simply say buy the better speaker regardless so this doesn’t affect my decision either.

I would not say "better", I would say different, yes.

 

[microstrip]

Thanks for your honesty…..are you saying that you had already known specifically about the crows before google and just needed to confirm what you already knew? or…..?

It is what is written in my post. In case you are from CIA or similar, please note we also talked a lot about scarecrows.

I have a Japanese garden in my back yard with a Koi Pond. I have Trumpet Vines to enhance the beauty of the landscape and to attract hummingbirds which my mom loved and collected related art.


Hummingbirds can remember each and every source of pollen they’ve partaken!
I also remember in Jr. High School a bird shit on my friends bike seat.

I owned several birds in the past - I would have nice stories to tell about them. Although not my main area of work, In the past I have thought basic physics to biologists. Do you know why bees also only visit a flower once? Feel free to use ChatGPT if you do not know, but it will probably return a wrong answer!

 

[Iamrael]

It is what is written in my post. In case you are from CIA or similar, please note we also talked a lot about scarecrows.



I owned several birds in the past - I would have nice stories to tell about them. Although not my main area of work, In the past I have thought basic physics to biologists. Do you know why bees also only visit a flower once? Feel free to use ChatGPT if you do not know, but it will probably return a wrong answer!

Micro,
We are all aware it’s impossible to know everything….i think you have a great mind and you have a lot to offer!

 

[JiminGa]

Surely I am happy to have your disagreement and disagree with you. I would however suggest that if you are interested in the subject at any time to look for opinions of speaker and amplifier manufacturers referring how digital influenced their designs. We are not forced to agree with them , but is always interesting to read about it. I also remember reading about it in the PSAudio forum.



I am not addressing "warmness". Just information compatibility. Do you agree that digital shows more and more true information than vinyl? Probably It is the critical point of disagreement.



Sorry, I will avoid referring to specif brands and models limitations or qualities - it will attract the fury of owners or haters. BTW, I find the same for amplifiers, not juts for speakers. It is a dangerous analogy, but IMO vinyl needs more sound stage illumination than digital.



I would not say "better", I would say different, yes.

Hmmm… Well plenty of speaker manufacturers build to a certain curve they happen to favor. Frequently + 3db 40-80 and down a few db about a few thousand hz but there is plenty of variability. I won’t speculate as to their motives. “ Information” I think is a little squishy. I think any competent speaker or amplifier. can handle the extra information you feel is required.

 

[microstrip]

Hmmm… Well plenty of speaker manufacturers build to a certain curve they happen to favor. Frequently + 3db 40-80 and down a few db about a few thousand hz but there is plenty of variability. I won’t speculate as to their motives. “ Information” I think is a little squishy. I think any competent speaker or amplifier. can handle the extra information you feel is required.

Just my opinion, surely influenced by the sayings of some WBF experts and professional sound recording people - we focus too much on the frequency response main trends and ignore other aspects that are much harder to analyse, but critical, such as distortion and noise. It is not a question of "handling" , it is how the recording information is served to us.

Information can be a keyword in sound reproduction - how deep do we want to go in the recording?

BTW, my main tool for analysis of formats was the Quad ESL63 - unfortunately my units are now needing stator re-gluing, a complex operation. They have limitations, but show inside stereo recordings as no other speakers can do.

 

[PeterA]

I prefer to think in terms of information retrieval and presentation over “resolution”.

 

[Newton John]

No it’s not, it it a total reflection of you as a person, what your goals are, are you a sucker or not, do you have class in taste or not, what your temperament is when your choices are challenged, how thorough are you in researching things you are interested in, do you have consistency in why you buy and what you justify, and did you buy to look cool in pics or to sound good on videos and in person

Touchy

 

[bonzo75]

Touché

Fixt

 

[Rensselaer]

I think the myth of “Sisyphus” pretty much applies to most of us, once we finally get that boulder to the top of the hill and achieve our goal it gets away from us and crashes back down to the bottom making us start all over again. But we don’t mind, seemingly enjoying the process over the goal. We ignore the teachings of Buddha, where we are forever reincarnated in this world until we stop seeking that next upgrade to find enlightenment by letting go?

In the beginning, and petty much throughout, I read reviews, upgraded, was not satisfied, read reviews, upgraded, was not satisfied, and again ad nauseam, each time feeling stupid for believing the reviewers and blowing my hard-earned money. In the early 80’s when CD’s (perfect sound) arrived, I sold my records and bought a Sony portable CD player and Sennhieser headphones. This little kit kept me happy for awhile, but there was something missing. I decided I needed to buy a better (more expensive) kit and see if that does it.

After a series of upgrades I realised that despite buying the latest and greatest upgrades, I wasn’t getting the enjoyment from music that I used to get from records and cassettes. I decided to reverse direction and go back to vinyl. More upgrades.

After a lifetime of trial and error, I have learned that, for my ears, a good turntable, arm and low-gain low-impedance MC cartridge into SUTs and a decent phono stage driving a well-designed flea-watt SETs without a pre-amp if possible (less components in signal path) into vintage horn speakers with AlNiCo magnets playing simply-recorded minimally-processed pure analogue recordings gets me closest to my ideal. Because I am also impaired by humble means, I must build, or modify used equipment to meet the design criteria I have learned sounds best, buying new where my skills just aren’t up to the task.

I thought I had finished, that I was “done”, but then my phono stage started rolling off treble and I heard a 2.3 watt Decware Zen in my system which sounded better than my 20 watt Ongaku copy. I am sending my Ypsilon back to the factory to get checked out and am on the waiting list for a new top-of-the-line Decware 25th anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier … sorry Buddha, I can’t let go, pushing that bloody boulder back up that blasted hill.