WHY are high-efficiency speakers are better at conveying emotion of music vs. audiophile vocabulary?

[mtemur]

Are women as emotional about overweight men as they are about fit men? Of course.

Women are equally emotional about both overweight and fit men as long as they’re rich. Maybe that’s called logic. I don’t know.
“Only his mother loves a poor man”

 

[hopkins]

Emotions are overrated these days on audiophile forums! I don’t expect to be tearing every time I listen to my system - in fact most of my strong “emotional” reactions to music don’t occur while listening to my system. I can be taken by surprise listening to a track at my computer or my phone and end up listening to it all day, in a loop. Most of the time I play music I enjoy I feel admiration (awe) for the performance but I can’t say that I always feel a strong emotional response. If it were the case, I suspect it would be quite tiring! There is certainly a strong « intellectual » aspect to music appreciation - even if I am not a music “technician”. For example, listening to a musician solo, I may admire the overall construction of the solo, the way it surprises me, the rhythmic drive, the tone of the instrument, etc…

What I expect from my system is to sound “clean”, not “muddy” (so good sense of resolution), have a fairly neural presentation, and bring out the individuality of different recordings, sound “lively”, etc... I am sure many share the same objectives - this is not rocket science. My relationship with hi-fi is purely “intellectual” and practical - it « performs » well or it does not, and cost is irrelevant.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The only way, by listening. I answered that question for myself when I directly compared a suite of Lamm electronics to Pass electronics. One clearly presented more information from the same recordings with less corruption. The Lamm conveyed more emotion of the music.

This was not my emotion, but the emotion of the performers. There was more insight to the performance because it presented more information in terms of nuance and dynamics and this was increased further when I replaced the Magico speakers with the corner horns.

my compare of Lamm, VAC and darTZeel amplifiers was not as clear cut as you represent. there was appreciation for the level of information from all three amplifiers. were the darts closer to the tube amps than the Pass? i can't really know the answer to that question. visitors to my room ask me all the time whether the dart's are tube or solid state. i like to think my system presentation is much more music and not amp circuit topology related.

more emotion from the Lamm? there was music that did favor the Lamm, but more that favored the darts. you were always conscious of the Lamm signature and sometimes there was more nuance. but not always. enjoyment......both are fantastic.

it's possible that your Magico's or even your room were more extreme in relating the solid state signature of the Pass. i've gone to great lengths in room tuning to take full advantage of the strengths of the darts. my reference amp/speaker sound has always been the Tenor/Kharma which is obviously tubes.

i know Ron preferred the VAC's the best in my room. he was the outlier of those who heard the compare.

i think attempts to make absolute claims of this or that about musical emotion and amplifiers is wrong thinking. back in 2011 i had some Scott Sheaffer built Found Music 2A3 mono blocks with Mercury Vapor rectifier tubes on my EA MM3's for a time. i was impressed by what i called 'speed inside the note'. it could not do the whole musical picture with my speakers. but what it did do was pretty awesome. stuff like that is interesting. but full of trade offs. i suppose we can interpret this kind of thing as better. YMMV.

 

[Kingrex]

That is untrue and confirms my assessment.

I've not said squeak about efficient speakers and enjoyment or otherwise. You seem to think I have. You are not reading what I wrote.

You did not answer my question and I never asked you to prove anything. Here was my question to you after your negative "maybe this maybe that" rant:



At this point, it is best to drop this. You appear to take every response within the narrow focus of whatever is on your mind at the moment instead of what is written to you. That is not dialog. There's no point in further engaging.

I never said you were saying high efficiency speakers bring higher enjoyment. I responded to your snarky jumping on my comments. But since you raised the point again and I have asked and you have not clearly answered I will ask again. Do you believe high efficiency speakers, done properly, as compared to low efficiency speaker done properly, yield a playback that elicits a greater level of engagement or enjoyment or whatever someone wants to call it.

 

[microstrip]

You and others keep assuming what Caesar means by the emotion of music. He did not write the emotion of listener. I am going by the very title of this thread. To me, it is an open question and the uncertainty is creating arguments between the posters. I do think emotion of music is very different from enjoyment. He did not write enjoyment. Surely words have meanings. (...)

Yes, fortunately we are much beyond the abusive and encrypted tittle thread ...

To me, the emotion of the music is what is created by the composer, the conductor, the musician. The emotion of the listener is the result of what he hears from the performance and whatever else his mind brings to it.

You are listening excessively to Beethoven ...

It would be nice for Caesar to clarify this point, which I think is critical to furthering the discussion of a very interesting topic. I’m not aware of books where this is discussed.

No need to ask Ceasar - some scholars address what you referring as emotion expressed by music and emotion induced in the listener. As far as I see it loudspeakers just induce emotion. But surely there are more than one
philosophical and psychological perspectives of the subject of music and emotion.

You forgot the producers and sound engineers - where should we place them?

 

[Kingrex]

You and others keep assuming what Caesar means by the emotion of music. He did not write the emotion of listener. I am going by the very title of this thread. To me, it is an open question and the uncertainty is creating arguments between the posters. I do think emotion of music is very different from enjoyment. He did not write enjoyment. Surely words have meanings.

My music mentor in Vienna told me a great story about what various conductors have told him over the years. He told me that the genius of the music is in the composer’s mind and is corrupted the moment he puts his thoughts down on paper. Those thoughts are further corrupted by the conductor who interprets the markings on the paper. The original thoughts are further corrupted when the musicians interpret the movements of the conductor and they perform accordingly. The passage of time and interpretation corrupt the original work.

To me, the emotion of the music is what is created by the composer, the conductor, the musician. The emotion of the listener is the result of what he hears from the performance and whatever else his mind brings to it.

It would be nice for Caesar to clarify this point, which I think is critical to furthering the discussion of a very interesting topic. I’m not aware of books where this is discussed.

Ok. This completely changes the context of the way I read the title. I still feel using the word "Emotion" is inflammatory. As Al M noted, emotional responses to music happen all the time. And generally have nothing to do with the playback electronics.

It appears the subject is not about "Emotion" but about the type of details that are retrieved when playing back music on different systems. Analyzed that way, Mike L has a good summary of what different amplifiers and speakers do. Non being perfect. All doing some things great.

Microstrip posted a cut that says, without a good midrange loudspeaker, the listening experience will be diminished. What constitutes good. My laptop is not good. But any person on this thread who has posted their gear has a good speaker. Maybe not exceptional. But they are all at a minimum good.

If one were to scrap the useless word, "Emotion" from the title and replace it with something like "Inner Detail" or " Subtle Cues", I would be much more apt to agree. Those are things that I have heard many times. But I would qualify its very system, "Setup", dependent. I have heard some very good low efficiency systems that are set up quite well and seem to contain gobbs of subtle cues and inner detail. What the low efficiency speakers seem to have is the ability to not be setup very well and still highlight these details. That does not mean they are pleasant to listen too. It just means they have an easier time presenting certain information. At the same time, there are a lot of high efficiency systems that miss the mark in other area. I think Mile L did a good job walking around what the 4 amplifiers did in his system. All do something good. Non are perfect. In the end, he selected what did the most for him. That is what we all do.

 

[Kingrex]

This is a quote from someone else that resonates with me. Its is a path that I have been pursuing with my system.

Why high efficiency is the only thing that makes sense for high end audio loud speakers. High efficiency = high dynamic range = high resolution and low distortion. This, results in Transient resolution, which is the ability to track very fast and complex dynamic (loud) pulses, retaining the fine interwoven acoustic detail in between the pulses. The ability to achieve this goal, is paramount, if we want to create a performance that is anywhere near something that can approach reality. This lack of efficiency is the industry's biggest stumbling block on their path to realism. They work with what I refer to as a non starter, regardless of how much they shine

 

[PeterA]

Yes, fortunately we are much beyond the abusive and encrypted tittle thread ...



You are listening excessively to Beethoven ...



No need to ask Ceasar - some scholars address what you referring as emotion expressed by music and emotion induced in the listener. As far as I see it loudspeakers just induce emotion. But surely there are more than one
philosophical and psychological perspectives of the subject of music and emotion.

You forgot the producers and sound engineers - where should we place them?

I did not forget. That was not part of the story as related to me because it was a story about live performance, and the emotional intent of the music created originally out of the brain of the composer and eventually interpreted by the musician and heard by the audience in the concert hall.

And without Caesar clarifying what he meant, I am talking about apples and you and others are talking about oranges.

This has nothing to do with Bach, Beethoven, or Brahms.

 

[PeterA]

I don’t think the subject being discussed is about “whatever you want to call it“, enjoyment, involvement, or suspension of disbelief. I interpret “the emotion of the music” increasingly, as that which is inherent to the music as it was created. I might be wrong. And if I am wrong, I still think it’s rather important to acknowledge that there is a distinction between the two. The music played back on our systems and the music heard in the concert hall or jazz club or street scene certainly conveys an emotional response in a listener.

 

[Rexp]

I don’t think the subject being discussed is about “whatever you want to call it“, enjoyment, involvement, or suspension of disbelief. I interpret “the emotion of the music” increasingly, as that which is inherent to the music as it was created. I might be wrong. And if I am wrong, I still think it’s rather important to acknowledge that there is a distinction between the two. The music played back on our systems and the music heard in the concert hall or jazz club or street scene certainly conveys an emotional response in a listener.

Of course you are not wrong, artists create music that triggers an emotional response in the listener. With a good recording on a good high-end system, the artist's intent is more clearly heard than on a mid-fi system.

 

[hopkins]

. With a good recording on a good high-end system, the artist's intent is more clearly heard than on a mid-fi system.

Breaking news!

 

[hopkins]

. I interpret “the emotion of the music” increasingly, as that which is inherent to the music as it was created.

Whatever it is you are trying to express, how does it relate to audio?

 

[PeterA]

Whatever it is you are trying to express,

I had an English teacher in boarding school. He gave us a poetry writing exercise and told us to "infuse your poems with the emotion you are trying to express to your reader". He told us that our intent, expressed in words, is the springboard from which the reader will derive meaning from the poem. "Let the intent be evident!" He was a good teacher

how does it relate to audio?

The emotion of music inherent in the composition, and then through the interpretation of, and the performance by, the musician, can reveal itself through the playback of the music captured on the recording over an audio system.

 

[Al M.]

This is a quote from someone else that resonates with me. Its is a path that I have been pursuing with my system.

Why high efficiency is the only thing that makes sense for high end audio loud speakers. High efficiency = high dynamic range = high resolution and low distortion. This, results in Transient resolution, which is the ability to track very fast and complex dynamic (loud) pulses, retaining the fine interwoven acoustic detail in between the pulses. The ability to achieve this goal, is paramount, if we want to create a performance that is anywhere near something that can approach reality. This lack of efficiency is the industry's biggest stumbling block on their path to realism. They work with what I refer to as a non starter, regardless of how much they shine

Define high efficiency.

Also, there are lots of designs that are good at what the author that you quote describes.

 

[hopkins]

The emotion of music inherent in the composition, and then through the interpretation of and the performance by the musician, can reveal itself through the playback of the music captured on the recording over an audio system.

Of course, art is expressive. But do you really think that say, a Nocturne by Chopin is going to be so much more « expressive » through a high end system than through a relatively basic system? I’m not so sure. Think of all the people who have heard and have been touched by this music - how many have heard it played on a system like yours?

Do you even need a high end system to appreciate music?

 

[Al M.]

Of course, art is expressive. But do you really think that say, a Nocturne by Chopin is going to be so much more « expressive » through a high end system than through a relatively basic system? I’m not so sure. Think of all the people who have heard and have been touched by this music - how many have heard it played on a system like yours?

Do you even need a high end system to appreciate music?

Great question.

 

[hopkins]

Great question.

It’s a great question for audiophiles because by definition we care about sound, to the point where it can spoil appreciation of the music. But for a “normal” person, I honestly don’t think systems are so important - within reason… Perhaps in some cases, I don’t know.

At the end of the day, if PeterA feels he connects with music better through system A than B, great. I would bet I could find 10 people who prefer system B to A for exactly the same reasons.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

Do you even need a high end system to appreciate music?

...BOOM!!!

 

[Alrainbow]

Fired up a tube amp yesterday for headphones
basically an set 300b to headphones not OTL has transformers
Bluetooth tidal to a battery dap analog into the amp
the sound was very emotional to me was holy grail wow
now I have two schools of thought
One is a good headphone setup gets you closer to the music I’ve always felt this way
two when you play songs you know very well and get to hear them like new in ways not auditory memories this triggers emotions
maybe I’m wrong but that’s what I think
lastly you don’t need a million dollars and endless setups to get this.

 

[PeterA]

Of course, art is expressive. But do you really think that say, a Nocturne by Chopin is going to be so much more « expressive » through a high end system than through a relatively basic system? I’m not so sure. Think of all the people who have heard and have been touched by this music - how many have heard it played on a system like yours?

Do you even need a high end system to appreciate music?

Of course not. What a silly question. No one needs a high-end system to appreciate music.

It’s a hobby and a choice some people make. It’s as simple as that.