The pros and cons of manufacturer/dealer/designer participation

ddk

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May 19, 2013
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Human nature being what it is, if there are humans involved there's politics too no matter the field of endeavor.

For this reason and due to direct experience in the matter no-one is going to convince me that a negative review is ethical! About 30 years ago a speaker manufacturer drove out to our place from the east coast somewhere to show off his speaker to us. IMO it was terrible. I really didn't want to say anything to him as its not my way to offer insults if I can possibly avoid it. Later I saw the same speaker in a Listener magazine where it was taken to task over nearly everything wrong I had heard in it. Even though I was in agreement with what was written, I still felt the review should never have seen the light of day. If I had been in the reviewer's shoes I would have simply told the the designer that he has more work to do- that it 'seems promising but the promise is not yet fulfilled'. I know he spent a lot of money on that project and it was probably foolish for him to submit the product for review so early on it its design cycle. But the result of the review is the designer got wiped out.

He wasn't IMO a bad person. Did he deserve to get wiped out?
This story is really bizarre to me Ralph and it has nothing to do with politics. You make up your own version of "Ethics" to criticize a reviewer for doing his job when you couldn't be bothered to be honest with a colleague who drove cross country to setup in your place for an opinion. I guess each to his own "ethics".

david
 

Folsom

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Oct 26, 2015
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Let’s say you tried your best to follow what I think works well, you explain your experience and what all it entailed. If your experience is not positive (and rarely at times if it is) someone’s toes will feel stepped on no matter what. Just be honest and descriptive, no one really needs the hyperbole of feelings about what you hear. Sometimes another man’s wrong gear is another’s right gear, and descriptive reviews leave that open without stigma.

I’m guilty of being annoyed by some products. For example calling kitty litter boxes grounds - an extremely untrue statement - but I cannot deny that they fulfill a lot of people’s desires. They don’t sound right to me, but I recognize I could be a monitory.

Am I unethical to point out the truth? To apply the most basic principle of electricity to show why they’re not what they say? I don’t think so. But I think we all recall what it’s like to have objectionist order people what to use or not, in total denial of subjectivity... as a juxtaposition for considering the ethicality of my feedback.
 

Ron Resnick

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howiebrou

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I’m guilty of being annoyed by some products. For example calling kitty litter boxes grounds - an extremely untrue statement - but I cannot deny that they fulfill a lot of people’s desires. They don’t sound right to me, but I recognize I could be a monitory.
Funny you should say that. I have had a recent experience with the Tripoint Elite. A few of you were pm as I sought assistance in this but to no avail. I was going to bring it up in a thread. Now I'm Not so sure!:p
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 21, 2010
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This thread feels like the "dealer corner" on Friday nights. :cool:

Over here real dealer nights involve eating, drinking and lots of harmless ribbing.
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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I think you are happy nowadays you did not write it - why writing a negative review for a very friendly and enjoyable publication, where even feedback is a positive thing? ;)

Disclaimer - I am surely biased, Positive Feedback has published rave reviews of my favorite digital system!
I will never know if would have been a positive or negative review as they did not, in the end, provide me with the gear. Apparently wasn’t worth the risk to them because a positive review wasn’t “in the bag”, so to speak.
 

morricab

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It's a too sensitive world out there. I have learned a lot from my friends criticizing my system, and they have learned from my criticisms. That does not mean we always need to end up agreeing with each other.

It's more efficient to get to the truth faster, so I applaud your approach, David, regardless if I agree with everything you say or not.
It takes a certain level of maturity and self confidence to accept criticism of things that on cares about. It is indeed how we grow and develop. Too many will equate a critique on a specific point as a general criticism of themselves...too personally invested and insecure.
 

rando

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Sep 22, 2019
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I liked Peter A.'s comment in the Extreme thread and thought it insightful given recent activity in there at the time. His comment came not long after the standout captioning of a designer kneeling in front of an audio rack that struck me as a very worthy and well timed disruption of the narrative. A solitary post containing this type of negative input might have been interspersed over an extended amount of time to slowly create the desired effect. No harm done and no need for site personnel to artfully craft continuity where the fence was broken through. I guess discussion on whether that which got in was more interesting than that which got out will continue for some time now.

One firm I worked at rated people as good, very good, excellent, and outstanding. Only the outstanding ones got promoted, and if you were good for two years in a row, you were asked to leave.

What actually got me to step in at this late point was the equally insightful idea above holding a means to champion and dissuade "Good" behavior in the correct ratios. Inviting everyone on the rolls among the active membership would make strides towards filling out this cavernous place with fresh content. Two consecutive years of "Good" behavior thereafter will see your activities here Pete "What's" Best'd. Of course I'm joking, but I fully appreciated the zeal for advancement of the group's potential being shown there. As I did with Peter A. clearing the way to less manipulated meanings behind "Good" product reviews by amateur unpaid writers living with fear of castigation.
 

JackD201

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I will never know if would have been a positive or negative review as they did not, in the end, provide me with the gear. Apparently wasn’t worth the risk to them because a positive review wasn’t “in the bag”, so to speak.

Your preferences for triodes and high efficiency loudspeakers are very clear Brad. If these were what were withdrawn I would be very surprised. If not, heck, I'd ask the EiC to assign my product to someone who is more in-line with my target customers.
 

morricab

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Your preferences for triodes and high efficiency loudspeakers are very clear Brad. If these were what were withdrawn I would be very surprised. If not, heck, I'd ask the EiC to assign my product to someone who is more in-line with my target customers.
Easy for you to say out of context Jack. At that time I was running a hybrid high power amp and a pair of large panel speakers. I had horns at university but I was definitely not a “horn guy” or die hard triode guy in 2004.
 

JackD201

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Fair eough. I had not realised you were with PFO as far back as then.
 

microstrip

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Over here real dealer nights involve eating, drinking and lots of harmless ribbing.

Fortunately here most dealers share these night activities with aficionados ... ;)
 

PeterA

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Dec 7, 2011
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I have enjoyed reading this thread and thank those who have joined the discussion for their thoughts and advice. I am encouraged by those who suggest user feedback and sonic impressions should be welcomed by all members here, both other audiophiles and industry representatives alike. The hope is that such feedback is delivered in a respectful manner. In that spirit, and with some introspection, I have written my latest thoughts about specific products in three general audio categories and how they sound in my system: room treatments, pneumatic isolation platforms, and power cords.

I have recently made a number of changes to my system and hope that some here may be interested in reading about them and may even find them helpful. It was my intent, when opening this discussion topic, that we arrive at some consensus, as a community, to best serve the needs of the membership. Here is a link: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/sublime-sound.12853/page-41
 

Atmasphere

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This story is really bizarre to me Ralph and it has nothing to do with politics. You make up your own version of "Ethics" to criticize a reviewer for doing his job when you couldn't be bothered to be honest with a colleague who drove cross country to setup in your place for an opinion. I guess each to his own "ethics".

david

Ethics in journalism is well-known to not have a connection between the advertising and the editorial. I don't think you are suggesting otherwise, but from the tone of your post I felt I should clarify. Further: proper ethics will not allow a personal grudge or the like into the picture. The reporter's job is to be neutral. In these days of Fake News its painful to have to point this out- I'm not using my own made up idea of what is ethical.

However I do take your point about not denigrating that manufacturer's speaker to his face. FWIW I don't think he was there to see me in particular- when I first heard from him, he was already in town after making some visits in Chicago. I know he planned a stop at ARC as well. I had the impression at the time that the trip itself would tell him all he needed to know. Sorry I did not make that clear earlier. Its hard to put some of these things in a nutshell...
 

andromedaaudio

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Peter you should not be afraid to give an honest opinion of a product.
I think your reviews appear to be quit honest .
Sure some manufacturers will be offended , you cant just buy all products just to make manufacturers happy.
Audiodealers are often quite business biased overhere
Everything they dont have in the portfolio is either questionable , or complete crap
 
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andromedaaudio

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If a product is never critisized , there is probably not a drive for the manufacturer to improve it.
It can he hard to swallow may be ,but thats not a reason to keep ones mouth shut.
 

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