Speakers for Kondo Ongaku... Please Help

[ddk]

Yes, your article on Leifs system was a great read and an interesting data point. But it supports my points. I would love to know the clear reasons, I see only very small group preference in those arguments. Interesting, but not an explanation.

Survival arguments would please Charles Darwin fans and sound great, but statistically are not valid in this hobby. And sorry, IMHO implementation is the keyword in audio, materials are second place.

It’s the same reason that modern recordings and LPs sound like Crap, specially when compared to the Golden Age recordings. Those engineers are gone and the knowledge they had along wry them. The same situation with speakers from the Golden Age era, the know how just isn’t there.

You’re wrong about materials, it’s extremely important, implementation is a different part of the equation not less or more important. A good example is the modern heavy vinyl formulation, it’s horrible and dead sounding no matter the implementation! Vinyl chemistry is another lost art! Bar a few thIngs and brands we can go through the gamut of highend with similar comparisons.

david

 

[Rob181]

Thanks for your kind words.
Your system must sound awesome.
Do you have a system thread?
I would like to ask you about your Lamm hybrids compared to other amps you tried...
But better not in this thread

Sorry for being OT

Please - why not - this is a subject I'm interested in...

 

[microstrip]

It’s the same reason that modern recordings and LPs sound like Crap, specially when compared to the Golden Age recordings. Those engineers are gone and the knowledge they had along wry them. The same situation with speakers from the Golden Age era, the know how just isn’t there.

You’re wrong about materials, it’s extremely important, implementation is a different part of the equation not less or more important. A good example is the modern heavy vinyl formulation, it’s horrible and dead sounding no matter the implementation! Vinyl chemistry is another lost art! Bar a few thIngs and brands we can go through the gamut of highend with similar comparisons.

david

OK, we agree on modern LPs - they sound really poor - but deeply disagree on modern recordings. IMHO modern recordings using top digital sound great, carrying a lot of information and are true masterpieces of stereo sound recording. There is life beyond the Golden Age recordings. Surely now we are addressing preference.

BTW, I was addressing just speakers, not chemistry of vinyl. Anyway, probably most of these vinyl ingredients would be forbidden by current regulations.

 

[ddk]

OK, we agree on modern LPs - they sound really poor - but deeply disagree on modern recordings. IMHO modern recordings using top digital sound great, carrying a lot of information and are true masterpieces of stereo sound recording. There is life beyond the Golden Age recordings. Surely now we are addressing preference.

BTW, I was addressing just speakers, not chemistry of vinyl. Anyway, probably most of these vinyl ingredients would be forbidden by current regulations.

I used LPs because comparison is simple and I knew you’d see it easily regarding lost knowledge and materials. It’s the same situation with speakers, knowledge is gone as are the materials and components. Last week I tried to rewire a pair of vintage speakers replacing the 60+ old wires with modern ones because of they were a bit corroded in some areas, I ended up keeping the old wires even with the corrosion.

Digital is modern tech nothing to do with this conversation about vintage products.

david

 

[PeterA]

Uwiik, Have you considered corner horns? As I start to read these horn/SET threads, I don’t find much discussion about corner horns.

 

[cal3713]

Uwiik, Have you considered corner horns? As I start to read these horn/SET threads, I don’t find much discussion about corner horns.

Are there commercial offerings in this format from companies besides klipsch?

I agree that they seem to be a great solution to rooms like these.

I'm considering a move to Panama and have been wondering about this design (both commerical and diy) in that context too. Their standard house format also seems to call out for corner horns.

 

[christoph]

Uwiik, Have you considered corner horns? As I start to read these horn/SET threads, I don’t find much discussion about corner horns.

There is (another) german Horn Speaker specialist (Martion)

Martion | Audiosysteme

He has two models with corner horn woofers:

Einhorn | Martion

Orgon | Martion

He usually showed close (walking distance) to the main event during the High End im Munich and his speakers always sounded very good to me.

 

[microstrip]

I used LPs because comparison is simple and I knew you’d see it easily regarding lost knowledge and materials. It’s the same situation with speakers, knowledge is gone as are the materials and components. Last week I tried to rewire a pair of vintage speakers replacing the 60+ old wires with modern ones because of they were a bit corroded in some areas, I ended up keeping the old wires even with the corrosion.

Digital is modern tech nothing to do with this conversation about vintage products.

david

You referred to modern recordings. Than digital becomes mandatory in this conversation, unless we admit that vintage horns are not optimum for digital recordings or digital media - an interesting subject for a separate thread?

Digital recording needs a different perspective on stereo recording and mastering techniques.

 

[bonzo75]

Diesis, Universum or Anima, all would be on my very short list of horns to consider along with some vintage horns and the Pureaudioproject horns that I have gone with. The WVL son would also be a speaker I’d love to hear also.

Having spent 100s of hours with the Animas they are a speaker that is very lovely in real life and if they suit you they are a speaker that you could take to the very end with you. I’d love to hear the Universums to get that data point as well. The Diesis look enticing also and the quality seems fantastic.

But I probably wouldn’t commit to anything more expensive than the WVL Sons myself without actually having a considerable personal trial simply because horns are so characteristically divergent and it comes down to the nature and characteristics that you then lean towards.

Also living with horns for some time shapes your listening more than any speaker I’ve experienced so living with something and discovering what type of horn lover you are is to me a good investment. Me, I love me a two way OB with a wide bander horn. Hope you find your version of pure horn excitement and connection. Enjoy the journey.

Anima, universum, trios, big dual FLH etc are better than WVL sons. With WVL you will need to listen to at least the swings which are quite expensive. WVL son competes with devore O96

 

[bonzo75]

You referred to modern recordings. Than digital becomes mandatory in this conversation, unless we admit that vintage horns are not optimum for digital recordings or digital media - an interesting subject for a separate thread?

Digital recording needs a different perspective on stereo recording and mastering techniques.

Vintage and modern horns are great for digital, the Altec, Leif's, universum Anima trios are great with digital. And even simple, cheap digital works great. All these systems have digital in fact manis Anima is digital only room corrected

 

[ddk]

You referred to modern recordings. Than digital becomes mandatory in this conversation, unless we admit that vintage horns are not optimum for digital recordings or digital media - an interesting subject for a separate thread?

I keep hearing this and also that horns can't play rock and pop but that's not my experience, at least with vintage horns. I can't speak to modern horn speakers since I have a hard time listening to most of them with any type of music.

Digital recording needs a different perspective on stereo recording and mastering techniques.

Agreed, it's a different animal from analog in every respect.

david

 

[rando]

I keep hearing this and also that horns can't play rock and pop but that's not my experience, at least with vintage horns. I can't speak to modern horn speakers since I have a hard time listening to most of them with any type of music.


Agreed, it's a different animal from analog in every respect.

david

This is very reasonable. I chanced overstatement in an earlier comment on the broader reception horns, verging towards what Bob² are concerned in, garner stateside. You and Kedar both suggest a reality of digital playback I've been increasingly curious about.

Nobody is arguing over consumer accessible technology faltering taking all the other requisites of production and innovation along for the ride (As a manufacturer I doubt you'd disagree a lot of lifeblood continues being poured into new goods despite controls in place that keep everyone shuffling forward at a pace set by multinational corporations). However, nothing is stopping you, me, or the next guy from sinking a few large trees worth of wood in a pond for the next dozen years. Nor rediscovering any of the other old world techniques and logic supposedly lost to the ravages of time.

It has never been about surpassing the height of previous generations shoulders. In reality standing tall enough to draw level remains the challenge.

 

[Phantom-Audio]

View attachment 76734
93db 4 ohm, doesn’t look promising for 27 watt SET. Anyone?

@ 4 ohms 93db unless your sitting very close to the speaker, prob not a good idea.

 

[cal3713]

Avoid a design that is not time and phase aligned. You can tell that the Diesis Roma Triode is not time-aligned - look at the midrange driver position relative to the other drivers. Also, the only horns that you should consider are conical. All of the others color the sound.

#1 DEFINITELY audition every speaker before you buy.

#2 The Best setup with Kondo Japan is the Living Voice Vox Olympian, which retail for about $1M. There is a pair in Hong Kong, showroom model, which can be purchased for much less. https://www.livingvoice.co.uk/vox-olympian-horn-loudspeaker.html

With my Kondo Japan M77 and Souga, I power these custom horns. They are a 1-off, and feature the world's best midrange, all field coil...
(Vacuum tube PSU for the field coils not pictured. It replaced the solid state PSUs you see behind the horns).

View attachment 77603

What drivers are you using? I'd love to keep building my field coil driver list...

 

[Zeotrope]

@ 4 ohms 93db unless your sitting very close to the speaker, prob not a good idea.

Definitely NOT!
If you sit as close as 10' away you will need 150W @ 4 ohms.

Use this online calculator:

HiFi Loudspeaker Design

www.mh-audio.nl

Remember you need to be able to play 105 dB Clean (85 dB + 20 headroom). It's amazing how many "high end" systems can't do this!

 

[Phantom-Audio]

I did offer for him to try our Field Coils Classic Audio Loudspeakers @ 16ohms 103db......but no response last 3 weeks. I'm about 20 mins away from him.

The classic Audio is usually paired with OTL by Atma-Sphere in the Demo room.

 

[Zeotrope]

Uwiik, Have you considered corner horns? As I start to read these horn/SET threads, I don’t find much discussion about corner horns.

Horns are directional, so you can place just about any horn in a corner.

 

[Zeotrope]

My humble setup:
Kondo Japan Souga + M77 (thank you, @Rhapsody!) that plays through these custom horns:
They are built around the 1940s (yes, 1940s) RCA 1443 high voltage field coil midrange. Frequency response: 300 - 7500 Hz, and > 110dB efficient.
Fostex TA500MkII horn super tweeters and Supravox 12" field coil drivers in a LaScala style folded horn walnut enclosure round out the setup.
Low end comes from a 500W transmission line sub.
This is more than enough for my small room.

The (ugly!) solid state power supply you see behind the speaker is being replaced by the mercury vapour power supply you see below (unfortunately, the first version caught fire!).

As much as I love these, it's been more than 5 years since I designed and commissioned them. For my next room, I will just order from @Rhapsody. Bob has done all of the hard work, and delivery won't take 5+ years .

 

[Rhapsody]

My humble setup:
Kondo Japan Souga + M77 (thank you, @Rhapsody!) that plays through these custom horns:
They are built around the 1940s (yes, 1940s) RCA 1443 high voltage field coil midrange. Frequency response: 300 - 7500 Hz, and > 110dB efficient.
Fostex TA500MkII horn super tweeters and Supravox 12" field coil drivers in a LaScala style folded horn walnut enclosure round out the setup.
Low end comes from a 500W transmission line sub.
This is more than enough for my small room.

The (ugly!) solid state power supply you see behind the speaker is being replaced by the mercury vapour power supply you see below (unfortunately, the first version caught fire!).

As much as I love these, it's been more than 5 years since I designed and commissioned them. For my next room, I will just order from @Rhapsody. Bob has done all of the hard work, and delivery won't take 5+ years .

View attachment 77611

AWESOME!!!!

 

[JYACO]

I recently had the good fortune to spend several hours listening to both the Diesis Roma and Roma Triode speakers. Electronics were the Diesis integrated amp and alternatively the Pilium Leonidas integrated amp. Both were fed by the Taiko Extreme streamer. The Roma and Roma Triode are the same size and of similar design with significant upgrades on the Roma Triode. I found both speakers to be well integrated and life like in their presentation. The Roma speakers were placed 12” from the side walls about 14’ apart. This set up produced a wide soundstage with a captivating presentation. The Roma Triodes were about 4’ out from the side walls and closer to the listening position producing a front row listening experience. In general, both speakers produced vocals that were relaxed and organic. Instruments from acoustic to electric, brass to clarinet and drums to cymbals all had a beautiful presentation. Drums, in particular, benefited from the horn design producing great dynamics and clarity. Bass was well defined and natural sounding. Deep bass was not produced as strong as other speaker designs might offer. These are open baffle designs, so the compete cross over system was readily visible. The construction, fit and finish were outstanding. I thoroughly enjoyed my time with the Diesis speakers and would encourage an audition by anyone considering a horn design or anyone who embraces the advantages of an open baffle design.