Speakers for Kondo Ongaku... Please Help

Uwiik

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Mar 3, 2021
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Just when I thought it was safe to go outside! There are those in this hobby for whom endless tinkering is a way of life. I know one fellow in the UK who has re-wired his amps (and the transformers) with platinum wire. There really is no end...

But, that how the boundary gets pushed.
It’s never be safe Bob!! Hahahaha. I am that kind of person Bob, I enjoy my hobby but I like the tinkering parts more, that way I never get bored and I have many other hobbies that involve lots of never ending. That’s why I am still sane...
 
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Uwiik

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May be someday. The Roma Triode is a speaker I have wanted to hear for many years.
Me tooooooooo!!!!! The fact that it’s made specifically for Ongaku made me drool. If only the price is more reasonable. Alsyvox Botticelli I can still swallow still within sanity limit IMO, Roma Triode not so much, it’s priced well outside of my sanity limit. I don’t usually go all cuckoo on 100K ++ gear, way past point of diminishing return IMO, except on Kondo Ongaku, it has been my “unobtainium” holy grail for a long time, so I don’t care about price when I bought it, thanks to the tanking Indonesian economy I get heavy discount for unsold new 2 years old stock. Paid 110K for Ongaku + G70 and the rest of the money goes to all Kondo cables and Shunyata conditioners. It’s different case with Roma Triode, I haven’t awarded it my “holy grail” status (based on YouTube mind you), LV Vox Olympian hold that position in my ears, but that thing is really out of my means, not that I am not willing, just simply not rich enough....LOL!!
 
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the sound of Tao

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Btw, regarding hostages of strong opinions in WBF... This is unfortunately not a horn forum. But all this is common knowledge in many other forum
I’d also add that being held hostage by strong opinions in all audio forums is not a horn thing... it’s a everything :eek:
 

Gregm

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Mar 14, 2019
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Yes I did but zero information to be had. Do you have a suggestion? Back in 2001 I heard the wooo hahhh and all the rave about Zingali from my local AD, never owned it though. Please tell me more about Zingali.
I can volunteer some info on the big series Zingalis, confusingly named "client EVO" followed by a number. Mine were the smaller number...

I was actually considering these for my room before Covid 19 brought me to my senses, so I listened to them extensively, not at home but at a dealer's, first in a ¬40sq m room, then in a smaller, 15sq m room.

They were driven in the beginning by AR monos (big, no idea which model, respectfully nothing to write back home about) and then by a totally unknown to me "Music(al?) Frontiers Audio" SS amp with a tube input stage. This amp is simply superb, reminds me of a slightly warmer Dartzeel...
Front end was mine as was the music library; we listened Classical music of course, jazz / blues / rock (Led Zeppelin, PF...)

Sorry for the long intro, but I might as well provide the setup so you get a better idea.

1) These are seriously beautiful constructions, not only the build quality but also the looks -- weird but very attractive with flowing lines (reminded me of Kharmas of yore). They are about 1m tall, and quite chunky and heavy.

2) Room size: they were borderline in the small room: i.e. difficult to fit a Mahlerian orchestra and play above a whisper

3) Sound: in a nutshell, when driven by that "MFA", the sound was magical down to the low mids. It sounded like I was listening to one, full-range, drive unit taking me all the way from 20kHz (or wherever it is) down to about 100 -- seemlessly. I'm not sure what they do & how they do it, but the Xover from the horn / waveguide to the next unit was inaudible.
That said and by comparison, the bass was nothing exceptional, it was present and not lacking in volume but it did not have the crispy, natural detail of the rest of the spectrum.
Listening to live recordings (ACDC anyone???, S&G concert in central park, Eagles live, DP made in Japan, Mahler-2 Tennstedt-LSO, live recording ) was strikingly good, immersive, moving at times.

You would probably love these for being different and playing well BUT I've left the big snag for last: said MFA amp is 150W per side and, although these are allegedly very sensitive speakers, they really sang with that amp.

Sorry for the lengthy monologue :)
 

Uwiik

Well-Known Member
Mar 3, 2021
296
191
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I can volunteer some info on the big series Zingalis, confusingly named "client EVO" followed by a number. Mine were the smaller number...

I was actually considering these for my room before Covid 19 brought me to my senses, so I listened to them extensively, not at home but at a dealer's, first in a ¬40sq m room, then in a smaller, 15sq m room.

They were driven in the beginning by AR monos (big, no idea which model, respectfully nothing to write back home about) and then by a totally unknown to me "Music(al?) Frontiers Audio" SS amp with a tube input stage. This amp is simply superb, reminds me of a slightly warmer Dartzeel...
Front end was mine as was the music library; we listened Classical music of course, jazz / blues / rock (Led Zeppelin, PF...)

Sorry for the long intro, but I might as well provide the setup so you get a better idea.

1) These are seriously beautiful constructions, not only the build quality but also the looks -- weird but very attractive with flowing lines (reminded me of Kharmas of yore). They are about 1m tall, and quite chunky and heavy.

2) Room size: they were borderline in the small room: i.e. difficult to fit a Mahlerian orchestra and play above a whisper

3) Sound: in a nutshell, when driven by that "MFA", the sound was magical down to the low mids. It sounded like I was listening to one, full-range, drive unit taking me all the way from 20kHz (or wherever it is) down to about 100 -- seemlessly. I'm not sure what they do & how they do it, but the Xover from the horn / waveguide to the next unit was inaudible.
That said and by comparison, the bass was nothing exceptional, it was present and not lacking in volume but it did not have the crispy, natural detail of the rest of the spectrum.
Listening to live recordings (ACDC anyone???, S&G concert in central park, Eagles live, DP made in Japan, Mahler-2 Tennstedt-LSO, live recording ) was strikingly good, immersive, moving at times.

You would probably love these for being different and playing well BUT I've left the big snag for last: said MFA amp is 150W per side and, although these are allegedly very sensitive speakers, they really sang with that amp.

Sorry for the lengthy monologue :)

no problemo with the lengthy monologue, much appreciated!! What you left to the last really is the deciding factor ;)
I have browsed some more last night and cannot get any meaningful result for Zingali and I definitely cannot audition it first. No experience, no info, no YouTube and no real life audition, seems like a deal breaker to me. I also read somewhere that Zingali shifted their focus to pro audio, not a good chance me think.
 

bonzo75

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I’d also add that being held hostage by strong opinions in all audio forums is not a horn thing... it’s a everything :eek:

Yes but in this case these are not opinions, there are clear reasons why the survivors are the better ones. Unfortunately the people who are not discerning, referred to previously, they read the information but never listen and all they glean out of the years of postings is someone opined old is better than new, and they make it a discussion of modern tech vs old tech without being... Discerning. They are fated to not learn and not move on from their speakers. We grew up drinking coke, but some of us moved on to fine dining.

There are many forums that print this information, and then there is always listening.
 

the sound of Tao

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Jul 18, 2014
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I had thought that the shift away from certain materials such as alnico and also use of field coils was a fundamental difference in the values lost in more recent horns but the idea that time filters out the lesser iterations and clarifies just leaving the distillation of the best makes a lot of sense. Also some horn makers now seem to be making more complex solutions but inherently simplicity can often create more coherent outcomes.

Either way it’s exploration of diversity and uncovering understanding through experiences that for me is a part of the joy. I’m happy to let the design process unfold through time and not feel locked into just off the rack solutions in audio. Not that it is a better pathway but just a better pathway for me. This way the journey gets better and more open and not more closed in. Every closing happily becomes another opening.
 

Gregm

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Mar 14, 2019
133
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France
no problemo with the lengthy monologue, much appreciated!! What you left to the last really is the deciding factor ;)
I have browsed some more last night and cannot get any meaningful result for Zingali and I definitely cannot audition it first. No experience, no info, no YouTube and no real life audition, seems like a deal breaker to me. I also read somewhere that Zingali shifted their focus to pro audio, not a good chance me think.
I don't wish to be presumpuous, but the more I get into your (happy) predicament, the more I warm up to the idea of Tannoy + Swarm. It will cost all of ¬4k or less, delivered, and you can take all the time you want to sniff around for new speakers.
Meanwhile, you'll be enjoying warm tunes at home! regards
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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I had thought that the shift away from certain materials such as alnico and also use of field coils was a fundamental difference in the values lost in more recent horns but the idea that time filters out the lesser iterations and clarifies just leaving the distillation of the best makes a lot of sense.

What a lovely sentence.
 
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the sound of Tao

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What a lovely sentence.
Many thanks Tim, written while listening to Beethoven’s Archduke piano trio... credit to the greater poetry of B who inspires flow always.
 
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User211

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Jul 28, 2014
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Do you think it’s possible to blend both without DSP/Xover? Your suggestion for dumping/trying as many different SS/tubes as possible to drive the bass terminal to find the perfect match is very easy to do, there are so many dealers with so many different amps to do home audition with. Unlike speakers where choice is very limited here, amps are dime a dozen, I can literally find almost anything except for the most exotic/crazy priced ones.
I tried a few combinations using two preamps - an Air Tight passive and two different TVCs. But what you really want is something like my Luxman pre that has two sets of outputs so you can volume match i.e. it allows you to control the volume of one amp WRT the other. So when you use the main volume control they move in tandem. Otherwise you have to play with two volume controls for the two different preamps, which is not good.

No DSP required.

To get the volume matching spot on you might want to use a test mic and run an FR test looking at the crossover point for any significant step change in output.

But TBH it is nice to be able to control the relative volumes manually via the Luxman remote. It amounts to a tone control, basically, albeit a slightly odd one.

It's good fun playing around and breaking the "rules" sometimes I find.
 
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Antheus29

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Apr 7, 2021
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Hi,
What about the WIlson Audio speaker or Verity Audio? I'm very interested with that subject because I'm thinking about buying a Ongaku... I red that Kaiser kawero Classics works well with Kondo
 

bonzo75

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Hi,
What about the WIlson Audio speaker or Verity Audio? I'm very interested with that subject because I'm thinking about buying a Ongaku... I red that Kaiser kawero Classics works well with Kondo

Verity is quite better than Wilson but don't think with ongaku, you should have a push pull amp for it or at the minimum something like the Allnic 50 watts 300b. I would like to listen to it with the Berning quadrature. And when you have such valve amps on cone speakers, please try out the Soulution preamp instead of a valve pre
 

microstrip

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This is clearly explained in my article in the section "breaking down Leif's sound".

Cost and engineers is a key reason. Higher quality material was much cheaper (relatively back then). Also, the TAD 4003 was produced to address the shortcomings of 4001 and is the engineer's last design and an all out effort. So it is later, not earlier, though no more produced.

There are clear reasons for certain components (not all) being better, no one is trying to say they are better because they are old. Keep in mind the ones of yesterday we seek today are the survivors, the best, and the lesser ones have been weeded out. That filtration is key.

Another example is where Alnico became very expensive at one point and that's why the shift to ceramic happened, and Altec began to go bankrupt. That's why the quality of Altec drivers before this timeline was better. The Goto example shows why beryllium was preferred but became expensive due to countries in the 2000s using it for defence costs.

Yes, your article on Leifs system was a great read and an interesting data point. But it supports my points. I would love to know the clear reasons, I see only very small group preference in those arguments. Interesting, but not an explanation.

Survival arguments would please Charles Darwin fans and sound great, but statistically are not valid in this hobby. And sorry, IMHO implementation is the keyword in audio, materials are second place.
 
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microstrip

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Hi,
What about the WIlson Audio speaker or Verity Audio? I'm very interested with that subject because I'm thinking about buying a Ongaku... I red that Kaiser kawero Classics works well with Kondo

Modern Wilson speakers have low impedance peaks - they should not be Ongaku friendly.
 

bonzo75

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Yes, your article on Leifs system was a great read and an interesting data point. But it supports my points. I would love to know the clear reasons, I see only very small group preference in those arguments. Interesting, but not an explanation.

Survival arguments would please Charles Darwin fans and sound great, but statistically are not valid in this hobby. And sorry, IMHO implementation is the keyword in audio, materials are second place.

Data point happens on listening. My listening on Leif's system is one data point. The facts mentioned on goto, beryllium, tad 4003 are commonly known across large groups, unfortunately you don't read their posts.

Take an example: if you decide to paint your house or add new flooring, you will notice many more shops that you had previously ignored. As you read Wilson etc threads, you are just not noticing commonly known data points on other areas.

Anyway, the reason I posted it is if you don't know, it is incorrect to mislead your readers by statements such as why are strong opinions claiming old is better than the new. That is pure FUD
 

Antheus29

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Verity is quite better than Wilson but don't think with ongaku, you should have a push pull amp for it or at the minimum something like the Allnic 50 watts 300b. I would like to listen to it with the Berning quadrature. And when you have such valve amps on cone speakers, please try out the Soulution preamp instead of a valve pre
Thanks for your reply... btw how the Ongaku sounds with Led Zeppelin? Never seen any review with that type of music
 
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bonzo75

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Thanks for your reply... btw how the Ongaku sounds with Led Zeppelin? Never seen any review with that type of music

Awful.

To listen to zep the next best system from Mike Lavigne's for me is one with this Altec

Don't have a zep video but Sabbath will have to do. On a plain Garrard plus SPU

 

djsina2

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Awful.

To listen to zep the next best system from Mike Lavigne's for me is one with this Altec

Don't have a zep video but Sabbath will have to do. On a plain Garrard plus SPU

I’m not criticizing this person’s system or your ears but what exactly do you find great about this? I’ve listened to this video before and IMHO it sounds pretty horrible. Do you need a new phone or something? I know YouTube is not a great tool to judge but there are some good sounding videos there.
 

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