Speakers for Kondo Ongaku... Please Help

Uwiik

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Stick with your instincts Uwiik, you have obvious capacity to explore some fabulous options through time. Not trying to destroy your relationship but perhaps some time...
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Also hoping that the current flooding in Indonesia and Timor Leste is not a part of your immediate world. This hobby can be a great retreat. Great music is always rich and amazing, we are very lucky souls.
Thanks for the calming words and also the fire for my relationship...LOL!! Fabulous!! Totally agree! I don’t even play instruments or sing (my wife do both) but I totally enjoy good audio since I was a teenager, I consider myself blessed in that regard.
 
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Uwiik

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I will jump in for Bob, it is possible to send an Ongaku out to Bob for your audition. I own two Ongakus at this moment, and could possibly send one out to Bob for you to hear with the Diesis Roma. Although a lot depends on the timing and how many Ongakus I will have in my possession at that time.

If you are still interested as time passes and you make your way to VC then keep in touch with Bob in Portland.
So much appreciated
 
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rando

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[Unnecessary addition to US perspective on horns]

Picture a black and white cartoon of some ancient zoot-suited dinosaur blowing their nose in a kerchief that inflates to look like a gramophone accompanied by matching comical 'HONK' sound effect. In effect the early 20th Century replete with distant crackly soundtrack recording of overly dramatic saloon piano playing and squeaky high voices. Even if you knock the dust off it and use modern technology to colorize and massively upscale the works.

They are Grandpa's ugly flower speakers in a Mother's memory book of regrettable childhood "Smile until you grimace out of fear and hatred at the encounter" photos of unmemorable events and places given outsized importance.



I'd personally like to hear a few suitably backed horns in the near future. Beyond that, my own feeling is digital audio will continue down the power usage scale. Drawing closer to SET/horn systems in many notable ways.


*I borrowed the photo from WBF at this link. Will gladly remove if asked.
 
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howiebrou

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It takes a set of good ears, willingness to hear and compare different stuff, an open mind and maybe in the end a set of big balls to admit that the audio path so far was maybe not the

I will jump in for Bob, it is possible to send an Ongaku out to Bob for your audition. I own two Ongakus at this moment, and could possibly send one out to Bob for you to hear with the Diesis Roma. Although a lot depends on the timing and how many Ongakus I will have in my possession at that time.

If you are still interested as time passes and you make your way to VC then keep in touch with Bob in Portland.
I would be happy to find him an Ongaku or two if you send me the Diesis Roma Triode Bob. You never know, they might stay!
 
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Rhapsody

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I would be happy to find him an Ongaku or two if you send me the Diesis Roma Triode Bob. You never know, they might stay!
I have two RTs and two Roma being made right now. About 12-14 week lead times for each. I wish I had an extra pair or I would send:(
 

Solypsa

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They are Grandpa's ugly flower speakers
It is a mind-bender to think that some of the first loudspeakers (the better 'talking cinema' systems ) were in some ways the ongoing pinnacle of the art. Really messes with the 'newer is better' paradigm.
 

User211

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Please don’t say that... LOL! The title of the thread is “what speaker for my Ongaku”, not “what amp for my speaker”..... That thought has crossed my mind but I just spent 150K++ and definitely won’t be selling my less than 1 month old Ongaku....it’s my holy grail amp (mentally) since long ago and finally I have it so I won’t be selling it. I’d rather go conservative and just buy AN-E or Devore than selling my Kondo but that wasn’t my target. I wanted something different (or Renegade if you prefer) to pair with my Kondo. Be it single driver, field coil, horns, OB or planar. Right now I am focusing on horns because horns has intrigued me since long and I REALLY want something different. I started my Audio hobby since 1994 with my HK Citation II and I never own long term any other speakers but box speakers, I just want something different.
Aw don't listen to me I talk utter rubbish;):)

I have a couple of 211 monoblocks I love. Not expensive compared to Kondo, but much more powerful. But the reality is a Luxman works better with my speakers. That said the 211s on the MRT and the Luxman on bass is fun from time to time and it works well. You could probably do the same with Alsyvox. See if you can try it if you really do like Alsyvox best.

But I also love planar magnetic speakers which is the only reason I said what I did.
 
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User211

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I will take most cones including Wilson and Magico over AG duo. I don't consider them much of a horn just because they have a horn like no mid. Their bass issue is much worse than any cone.

The point I want to make is these are not representative of what I am referring to by the "horns". There are too many bad horns, like awful.
In all honesty ML hybrids and many other speakers have the bass integration issue.

But I think you go overboard on the issue with Duos. I have heard far worse integration in Cessaro Lizts and many other speakers than is present in recent Duos.
 

hogen

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May 15, 2018
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Ked,
Duos are known for their beautiful midrange due to the fact that there is no crossover at all between 170 and 2200 Hz, so no manipulation of the signal and no distortion.
This is a matter af matching them with the right amp and you are done.
So severe critics like yours are rather a matter of personal bias and imho far from being objective Ked.
We may discuss bass integration , drivers quality and highs but among commercial horns Duos have very good price/ quality relation.
I put Duo Mezzo XD over Unis III and I am not alone.
Of course I respect people preferences and will not insist on changing Unis III for Mezzo , I could be happy with Universum and with Zingali, Acapellas and Cessaro as well. There is no one best speaker for all of us.
I very much agree with this.
 
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bonzo75

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In all honesty ML hybrids and many other speakers have the bass integration issue.

But I think you go overboard on the issue with Duos. I have heard far worse integration in Cessaro Lizts and many other speakers than is present in recent Duos.

I don't like the Liszt either. I prefer ML hybrids much more. The Cessaro Wagner is extremely poor as is the Chopin.
 

Uwiik

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Aw don't listen to me I talk utter rubbish;):)

I have a couple of 211 monoblocks I love. Not expensive compared to Kondo, but much more powerful. But the reality is a Luxman works better with my speakers. That said the 211s on the MRT and the Luxman on bass is fun from time to time and it works well. You could probably do the same with Alsyvox. See if you can try it if you really do like Alsyvox best.

But I also love planar magnetic speakers which is the only reason I said what I did.
You mean bi amp the Alsyvox? That would be adventurous and me likey....
 
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User211

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You mean bi amp the Alsyvox? That would be adventurous and me likey...
I've tried quite a few times with different combos. With very mixed results from bad to really quite impressive in many ways. When it goes wrong is when the amp personalities just don't match each other well.

Basically dump a powerful SS or tube/valve amp on the Alsyvox bass driver and let the Ongaku do the rest. Believe it or not an SS amp can blend well with a tube/valve amp on mid/top. Just needs to be the right SS amp.
 
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Bobvin

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I've tried quite a few times with different combos. With very mixed results from bad to really quite impressive in many ways. When it goes wrong is when the amp personalities just don't match each other well.

Basically dump a powerful SS or tube/valve amp on the Alsyvox bass driver and let the Ongaku do the rest. Believe it or not an SS amp can blend well with a tube/valve amp on mid/top. Just needs to be the right SS amp.
Just when I thought it was safe to go outside! There are those in this hobby for whom endless tinkering is a way of life. I know one fellow in the UK who has re-wired his amps (and the transformers) with platinum wire. There really is no end...

But, that how the boundary gets pushed.
 
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tima

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It is a mind-bender to think that some of the first loudspeakers (the better 'talking cinema' systems ) were in some ways the ongoing pinnacle of the art. Really messes with the 'newer is better' paradigm.

I don't direct this at you, but bashing 'newer is better' is currently very much in style on this forum. Not to say there are not good products from the past, but I'm not sure any pinnacles have been reached.
 
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microstrip

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One aspect that puzzles me in horns is that modern top horn speakers are, in general, said to sound less good than the vintage unobtainium ones. This negative correlation of sound quality with technological developments and time looks bizarre. All other types of speakers - box, electrostatic, magneto-dynamic panel have regularly improved using designers knowledge about stereo psycho-acoustics and/or technology. Why must the TAD 4001 sound less good than the replacement TAD 4003? :oops: Why can't we in 2021 easily build a DIY great horn speaker like people did 20 years ago? Or are we just being hostages of strong opinions going around in WBF? ;)
 

Solypsa

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I don't direct this at you, but bashing 'newer is better' is currently very much in style on this forum. Not to say there are not good products from the past, but I'm not sure any pinnacles have been reached.
To be clear I am not one to bash 'modern' audio progress. ( for me this means last 20 years )

Not often is it the case that early examples of a technology or device stand as 'unsurpassed' for a long period of time but sometimes yes ( violins appear to be one example ). I'm not sure where loudspeakers in general are in their evolution. I am merely amazed at how good the early efforts were.
 
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bonzo75

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One aspect that puzzles me in horns is that modern top horn speakers are, in general, said to sound less good than the vintage unobtainium ones. This negative correlation of sound quality with technological developments and time looks bizarre. All other types of speakers - box, electrostatic, magneto-dynamic panel have regularly improved using designers knowledge about stereo psycho-acoustics and/or technology. Why must the TAD 4001 sound less good than the replacement TAD 4003? :oops: Why can't we in 2021 easily build a DIY great horn speaker like people did 20 years ago? Or are we just being hostages of strong opinions going around in WBF? ;)

This is clearly explained in my article in the section "breaking down Leif's sound".

Cost and engineers is a key reason. Higher quality material was much cheaper (relatively back then). Also, the TAD 4003 was produced to address the shortcomings of 4001 and is the engineer's last design and an all out effort. So it is later, not earlier, though no more produced.

There are clear reasons for certain components (not all) being better, no one is trying to say they are better because they are old. Keep in mind the ones of yesterday we seek today are the survivors, the best, and the lesser ones have been weeded out. That filtration is key.

Another example is where Alnico became very expensive at one point and that's why the shift to ceramic happened, and Altec began to go bankrupt. That's why the quality of Altec drivers before this timeline was better. The Goto example shows why beryllium was preferred but became expensive due to countries in the 2000s using it for defence costs.

 
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Uwiik

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I've tried quite a few times with different combos. With very mixed results from bad to really quite impressive in many ways. When it goes wrong is when the amp personalities just don't match each other well.

Basically dump a powerful SS or tube/valve amp on the Alsyvox bass driver and let the Ongaku do the rest. Believe it or not an SS amp can blend well with a tube/valve amp on mid/top. Just needs to be the right SS amp.
Do you think it’s possible to blend both without DSP/Xover? Your suggestion for dumping/trying as many different SS/tubes as possible to drive the bass terminal to find the perfect match is very easy to do, there are so many dealers with so many different amps to do home audition with. Unlike speakers where choice is very limited here, amps are dime a dozen, I can literally find almost anything except for the most exotic/crazy priced ones.
 

bonzo75

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Btw, regarding hostages of strong opinions in WBF... This is unfortunately not a horn forum. But all this is common knowledge in many other forums
 
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