Quiet gear vs. dark backgrounds, and the "space between the notes"

[caesar]

I think there is a famous quote by Debussy that "music is the space between the notes". Great musicians just know how many notes to play, and when, and how long to play them, and when to pause -- to trigger that emotional response in human beings.


Check out Sonny Boy Williamson's notes and pauses both in the harmonica and singing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFRMBWgyH-M

One would imagine many folks would want completely silent gear to pick up these nuances and the most minute swings in dynamics, but I also know of others preferring trade-offs in the poorest recordings.

Some gear is written about as "dead silent", while other gear is written about as having a "black background". Is the "dead silent" gear the same as something having a "black background"? Is it possible to have gear that is both dead silent and forgiving of poor recordings?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Is the "dead silent" gear the same as something having a "black background"?

Yes.

Is it possible to have gear that is both dead silent and forgiving of poor recordings?

Of course. No matter how high the noise floor in the recording might be, you won't make it better by raising the noise floor even higher with noisy gear. You might "enhance" bright recordings with dull gear or dull recordings with bright gear, but the noise floor will not improve by adding noise. It will only get worse.

Tim

 

[cjfrbw]

There are certainly masters of "when not to play", such as Miles Davis, Yusef Latif, and Don Cherry. They know how to be economical with their participation and yet play with maximum impact to inhabit the musical tableau.

However, I do like vinyl, that always has some noise penalty, and prefer overall that the actual music played sound as good as possible rather than compromising the playback quality just to get an imitation of black silence between cuts or notes. When is the last time you went to a live concert anyway and had "black" silences between notes or segments? Doesn't really exist anyway, it tends to be a product of the mastering studio, not reality.

That makes me old school, I think the best sound comes with some dither and that absolute black is more artificial than some noise.

 

[Gregadd]

I think there is a famous quote by Debussy that "music is the space between the notes". Great musicians just know how many notes to play, and when, and how long to play them, and when to pause -- to trigger that emotional response in human beings.


Check out Sonny Boy Williamson's notes and pauses both in the harmonica and singing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFRMBWgyH-M

One would imagine many folks would want completely silent gear to pick up these nuances and the most minute swings in dynamics, but I also know of others preferring trade-offs in the poorest recordings.

Some gear is written about as "dead silent", while other gear is written about as having a "black background". Is the "dead silent" gear the same as something having a "black background"? Is it possible to have gear that is both dead silent and forgiving of poor recordings?

I 'm gonna move this to the great music videos section. Thanks Ceasar.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

there is sound, and there is musical economy.

i've always really enjoyed Count Basie and Bill Evans to name a couple (there are many other good examples), for their spare but rich economy of notes.

but back to the sound in terms of quiet gear and black backgrounds.

to me it starts with what is on the recording. and even formats.

i listen to a master tape (of minimal generation). then the Lp, maybe the hirez or SACD, and then the redbook. i hear the level of ambient information diminish with each step down in resolution. tape and vinyl deal with quiet passages in a different way than digital. it's a matter of degrees, not one can and one cannot. digital can and does have passages with 'zero' sound. tape and vinyl don't do that except between tracks. does that mean that digital has a blacker background? i suppose everyone has their view on that issue.

then there is the gear itself. how quiet is it? i find that particularly in amplifiers; high power = high noise. or....high dollars = low noise. generally both are true but not always.

and lastly there is the power grid. and here; until you hear truely quiet you do not know what is possible.

put all those issues together and you can have some great involving music.

Count Basie on master tape, with low noise amps, with a properly isolated power grid.

quiet gear, black backgounds, and 'space between notes'.

 

[microstrip]

(...)
Some gear is written about as "dead silent", while other gear is written about as having a "black background". Is the "dead silent" gear the same as something having a "black background"?

May be we will not all accept this terminology, but I associate the designation of "dead silent" with signal-to- noise ratio (absence of electronic noise, tape hiss or clicks) and "black background" with the perception of space and localization in a recording at low levels. It is also associated with gradation of decays and emerging of sounds from silence. May be Mike Lavigne can help me - DartZeel equipments is particularly good in this aspect, if the recording has it.

 

[Bruce B]

Another thing. You're not going to "hear" the silence between the notes if your room isn't quiet! The noise floor in your room will also help you determine how quiet the recording is as well.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

May be we will not all accept this terminology, but I associate the designation of "dead silent" with signal-to- noise ratio (absence of electronic noise, tape hiss or clicks) and "black background" with the perception of space and localization in a recording at low levels. It is also associated with gradation of decays and emerging of sounds from silence. May be Mike Lavigne can help me - DartZeel equipments is particularly good in this aspect, if the recording has it.

the darTZeel amp and preamp are exceptionally quiet.......very simple circuit and short signal paths, no 'global feedback'....battery power in the preamp. whenever i compare the dart amp or preamp to other gear it always strikes me how they are lacking any 'character or influence' on the music. they are 'not there' in the classic sense of getting out of the way of the music. yet don't add any grain or etch.

black backgrounds and low noise are fine and good, but they are not the goal. you also need a lively microdynamically alive sound with a jump factor and refinement in presentation. you want a bit of sparkle and fire in the mids and an extended grainless top end that is very open. it's the combination of all these things which results in nailing the musical message. which is where you get that limitless decay, the definition in the cymbles, the groan of the cello, the impact of the piano. it's about balance.

when i listen to 'some' of the expensive high power very low noise amps; it always seems like there is something in the way of the musical message. like some restriction to the freedom of the musical energy....what's missing is hard to define, but when it gets restored it's unmistakable in effect.

 

[Gregadd]

You want good good square wave response
low distortionn
excellent s/n
good damping.
adequate amplifier power.
you want to control room reflections. no echo.
in essence you want the components to repond instataneously when the signal is appplied and to do nothing when no signal is applied. When a sound wave is launched into the room you want proper decay not extra bouncing around the room.

Ethan is right on this issue at least. Measurements will take almost all the way home.

 

[JackD201]

Another thing. You're not going to "hear" the silence between the notes if your room isn't quiet! The noise floor in your room will also help you determine how quiet the recording is as well.

+100

 

[caesar]

I gonna move this to the great music vides section. Thanks Ceasar.

Greagad, I hope you and the others enjoy this. Sonny Boy Williamson is one of top 2 or 3 best blues harp players ever. Maybe the best ever. Too bad there are so few recordings of him, let alone good ones. However, looking at the emotion he is conveying in the video, kind of makes up for a lack of a good recording. Just by looking at his face and body language, I think our brain can fill in the gaps due to poor sound.

 

[caesar]

the darTZeel amp and preamp are exceptionally quiet.......very simple circuit and short signal paths, no 'global feedback'....battery power in the preamp. whenever i compare the dart amp or preamp to other gear it always strikes me how they are lacking any 'character or influence' on the music. they are 'not there' in the classic sense of getting out of the way of the music. yet don't add any grain or etch.

black backgrounds and low noise are fine and good, but they are not the goal. you also need a lively microdynamically alive sound with a jump factor and refinement in presentation. you want a bit of sparkle and fire in the mids and an extended grainless top end that is very open. it's the combination of all these things which results in nailing the musical message. which is where you get that limitless decay, the definition in the cymbles, the groan of the cello, the impact of the piano. it's about balance.

when i listen to 'some' of the expensive high power very low noise amps; it always seems like there is something in the way of the musical message. like some restriction to the freedom of the musical energy....what's missing is hard to define, but when it gets restored it's unmistakable in effect.

Yes, Dartzeel is wonderful. Out of curiosity, have you had the pleasure of hearing an OTL amp such as Atma-sphere? Talking about having the musicians in your room...

 

[caesar]

There are certainly masters of "when not to play", such as Miles Davis, Yusef Latif, and Don Cherry. They know how to be economical with their participation and yet play with maximum impact to inhabit the musical tableau.

However, I do like vinyl, that always has some noise penalty, and prefer overall that the actual music played sound as good as possible rather than compromising the playback quality just to get an imitation of black silence between cuts or notes. When is the last time you went to a live concert anyway and had "black" silences between notes or segments? Doesn't really exist anyway, it tends to be a product of the mastering studio, not reality.

That makes me old school, I think the best sound comes with some dither and that absolute black is more artificial than some noise.

Yes, definitely vinyl fans and tube fans are willing to give up some black background for that "naturalness" (or "coloration" as guys like Phelonious would call it).

But I don't think it's only limited to tubes. To my ears, conrad johson is not perfectly black, and neither is Magnepan. (And I don't mean this in a bad way - I love both brands.) There seems to be a slight haze or a slight diffiuseness to the sound, which I find very lifelike.

 

[caesar]

Thanks for all of the replies so far. I do wonder if there is any designer out there who is capable to separate out the noise from the signal, filtering out the background noise and enhancing the naturalness of the musical signal. In my experience, it seems like high end digital brands such as dCS, Meridian, and Playback Designs all have this super quiet quiet, dark, dark background from which music just flows. I wonder if they are in effect doing that to a degree.

 

[amirm]

Absence of noise doesn't come from filtering it. It comes from building low-noise circuits. If you attempt to filter noise that is audible, you will also filter out high resolution component of your signal.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Yes, Dartzeel is wonderful. Out of curiosity, have you had the pleasure of hearing an OTL amp such as Atma-sphere? Talking about having the musicians in your room...

10 years ago i was all ready to buy a set of Atmasphere MA2 mK2's and then i heard the Tenor 75 watt OTL monoblocks and fell in love. i ended up owning the Tenors for 3 years and then moved to the Tenor 300 watt hybrids, and then to the darTZeel.

back to the Tenor OTL's. super low noise floor, amazingly crystaline mid-range and full of life, but unlike other tube amps, it had tight bass and the top end was very open and extended, nothing was rounded off or dark sounding. the Atmasphere, as good as it sounded, was a bit cold and less refined in comparison. i still like Atmasphere amps and recommend them. the Tenors were a bit fragile and tended to grenade and take out the ceramic mid-range drivers of the Kharmas, but they are still my favorite all time tube amp (the ML3 now being different but held as highly in my mind).

at that time i had just purchased Kharma Exquisite Reference speakers and the combo of the Tenors and Kharmas did bring the musical event into my room.

many other guys ended up with the Tenor-Kharma combo after i had discovered the synergy.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Yes, definitely vinyl fans and tube fans are willing to give up some black background for that "naturalness" (or "coloration" as guys like Phelonious would call it).

I'm working on this, caesar; it's a process, but I'm making progress. I used to just call it "distortion." Now I've embraced "coloration" and I'm working my way toward "tone." I don't think I'll ever be able to get to "natural," but just to clarify, I use those terms to describe the way some gear alters the signal, not the (fill in the blank) it adds to the background. That I just call noise, though I'm currently working on getting to the more benign "electro-mechanical ambience."

Tim

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I'm working on this, caesar; it's a process, but I'm making progress. I used to just call it "distortion." Now I've embraced "coloration" and I'm working my way toward "tone." I don't think I'll ever be able to get to "natural," but just to clarify, I use those terms to describe the way some gear alters the signal, not the (fill in the blank) it adds to the background. That I just call noise, though I'm currently working on getting to the more benign "electro-mechanical ambience."

Tim

Tim,

it might be interesting for you to compare how digital and vinyl interpret a master tape. which format gets closer to the way a master tape interprets the silence between notes, during quiet passages, and before the music begins.

or try comparing one of the Reference Recordings where Prof. Johnson has used 2 recording chains with the same mic feed, one analog tape and the other 176/24 PCM.

i'm not saying which version of noise floor one may prefer; but there are ways to be able to compare and draw a conclusion.

to me the easiest way to confront the truth about this issue is to visit Bruce Brown's studio where he can seamlessly apply any digital format or analog to any source and you can A/B in real time.

and i respect whatever perspective you come up with on what you hear.....and your "electro-mechanical ambience" viewpoint on the background foundation of vinyl has merit to some degree. i hear a bit of that when i compare my vinyl to tapes which provided the source for that vinyl....it is a character of the vinyl mastering process. my perspective is that while there is a bit of added 'something' the essense of the tape is not removed or obscured by that addition. whereas with PCM in particular and digital in general there is a loss of information in the background/foundation of the signal on the tape which results in less space and ambience than the tape had.

 

[Ethan Winer]

You're not going to "hear" the silence between the notes if your room isn't quiet!

That's what I'd have said if you didn't beat me to it. To get a room having a noise floor at the threshold of audibility costs $50,000 or more. Even with headphones, which maybe block incoming sound by 20 dB (though not at all frequencies), you'd still need a very special room to have total silence between the notes.

--Ethan

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

and i respect whatever perspective you come up with on what you hear.....and your "electro-mechanical ambience" viewpoint on the background foundation of vinyl has merit to some degree. i hear a bit of that when i compare my vinyl to tapes which provided the source for that vinyl....it is a character of the vinyl mastering process. my perspective is that while there is a bit of added 'something' the essense of the tape is not removed or obscured by that addition. whereas with PCM in particular and digital in general there is a loss of information in the background/foundation of the signal on the tape which results in less space and ambience than the tape had.

When I listen to good pressings of records in really good condition, played on really good vinyl rigs, my impression is much the same as yours: I hear a bit higher noise floor than I would expect to hear on tape, but it's not enough to really take away from my enjoyment of the music. The other part remains a mystery to me though. I've recorded analog and digital. I've digitized tape and vinyl. I've never missed anything. The noise floor -- electric, mechanical and room -- comes through to digital undiminished unless noise reduction is applied.

Tim