Objectivist or Subjectivist? Give Me a Break

[microstrip]

I don't get this. Can you elaborate?

Tim

Tim,

Surely. High-end systems coupled with appropriate rooms can deliver an exceptional high quality, but any small change or deviation in the system can bring the whole system out of tune, sounding almost miserable. In order to have the system operating properly, you have to be knowledgeable, open minded and experiment a lot, rely on real experts or sometimes just being lucky. .

For a better understanding of may analogy see Q factor in wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_factor

 

[MylesBAstor]

Sound and music are not mutually exclusive; one can be both a musician and an audiophile (though it does seem to be pretty rare), and most musicians I know are quite obsessed with sound. But I don't think anyone is trying to blame some personal mediocrity on the poor audiophile; where did that even enter the conversation? I think their (the musicians' and engineers') dismissal is condescending enough...or maybe it's just defensive. Maybe they're just trying to understand how it is these people who create no music of their own, who have, relative to themselves, very little experience of live instruments, can claim to hear what they don't hear, to have superior sensibilities regarding an art and craft which they only observe, and through a lens at that. Gotcher arrogance right there.

A little sympathy and understanding would take these musicans far perhaps, but their reaction is also pretty understandable, and their arrogance, if that is what it is, is a reflection, not a defense of some undefined mediocrity. I can tell you this much -- there are Sunday evenings I come home from band practice, log on here, read some of our members here (the few, the loud...) describing their listening experience, or more likely, the deficit in someone else's listening experience, relative to the "real instruments" that I just finished playing and listening to for a few hours. And I haven't a clue what they heck they're talking about. And I know, as sure as I know the sun is setting outside my window, that they don't know either. It's no excuse for arrogance but it's a hell of a good reason for skepticism.

Tim

I wasn't talking about musicians Tim. That is a chapter in a book. I was talking about recordings and their quality.

 

[microstrip]

I am not sure I followed you on this one, sorry.

I understand some folk, and some differences, take time to identify and explore. Time was not a factor in my post; take as little or as long as you like.

Assembling a system that shows the best of one amplifier may show the worst in another, but I still think within a large range (as an example say several $1k to $10k conventional dynamic speakers that do not have wide impedance excursions in a moderately-sized room driven at moderate volume, in other words, what a lt of people own) most listeners would be hard-pressed to distinguish from among a group of typical SS amplifiers whether AVR or separates.

I assume by high-Q you are addressing those speakers "on the edge" that have perhaps more difficult requirements and are best suited to a certain breed of amplifier? In that case I think we agree.

p.s. I finally grew out of listening to the gear and now listen to the music. Usually. Actually, I have to listen extra closely tonight as I'll be making it, not just listening (big band gig)!

Don,

I am not addressing only electrically compatibility, but the famous system synergy. I have seen too many electrical compatible systems (correct impedance, power and room) sounding miserable to rely only with these rules. IMHO, they are needed, but not enough, and I know of many success case that embarrass these rules.

I think most of us just want to listen to THE MUSIC, as you refer. But once you listen to a great musical experience using sound reproduction at one time, you want it with more recordings.
I know it is not possible, but I would love all my recordings of big band sounded as good as my direct cut Sheffield LP of Harry James, as I can not dream of having the experience I once had at a beach near Barcelona listening to a real big band orchestra ten meters away from my hotel room balcony!

And I have no problems admitting that being an audiophile is not only listening to music - otherwise WBF would be mostly debating recordings. Those trying to reduce high-end to a set of electrical rules (that are surely relevant and we must thank you for your clear presentations) are just seeing the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Bill Hart]

Sound and music are not mutually exclusive; one can be both a musician and an audiophile (though it does seem to be pretty rare), and most musicians I know are quite obsessed with sound. But I don't think anyone is trying to blame some personal mediocrity on the poor audiophile; where did that even enter the conversation? I think their (the musicians' and engineers') dismissal is condescending enough...or maybe it's just defensive. Maybe they're just trying to understand how it is these people who create no music of their own, who have, relative to themselves, very little experience of live instruments, can claim to hear what they don't hear, to have superior sensibilities regarding an art and craft which they only observe, and through a lens at that. Gotcher arrogance right there.

A little sympathy and understanding would take these musicans far perhaps, but their reaction is also pretty understandable, and their arrogance, if that is what it is, is a reflection, not a defense of some undefined mediocrity. I can tell you this much -- there are Sunday evenings I come home from band practice, log on here, read some of our members here (the few, the loud...) describing their listening experience, or more likely, the deficit in someone else's listening experience, relative to the "real instruments" that I just finished playing and listening to for a few hours. And I haven't a clue what they heck they're talking about. And I know, as sure as I know the sun is setting outside my window, that they don't know either. It's no excuse for arrogance but it's a hell of a good reason for skepticism.

Tim

My experience in having musicians and industry types, including engineer/producer types over, is that they enjoy the lengths to which I have gone- it is certainly no substitute for real instruments, and occasionally, somebody will flip the switch to turn on a guitar amp and all hell breaks loose! (Not me, while I have a few guitars, I'm hardly a good player, but I have played keyboards since I was a kid). And, most of them, even the ones who have the money for a super-duper hi-fi, don't seem to make that a giant priority for themselves, it also goes back to what a musician can glean even from a boombox. Most visitors, whether or not musicians, also get into the gear- they usually marvel at the turntable and the horns, even if they are generally familiar with tube gear. FWIW, I am the first to admit what the system's shortcomings are, and of course, I'll try to pick a few things that show off the system at its best.

 

[NorthStar]

---From all my time spent so far at WBF, everyone here loves MUSIC.

The gear is the mean, the music is the emotional freedom. :b

Is one music recording better than another same one? For sure.
...That's the real search of audiophilia: the best music recordings. ...And the best mediums.
And if the reproductive/mechanical electronica helps, then even better! :b

And the MUSIC we all love, it is a personal thing;
inside each one of us and depending of our own personal & musical journey.

 

[DonH50]

Don,

I am not addressing only electrically compatibility, but the famous system synergy. I have seen too many electrical compatible systems (correct impedance, power and room) sounding miserable to rely only with these rules. IMHO, they are needed, but not enough, and I know of many success case that embarrass these rules.

I think most of us just want to listen to THE MUSIC, as you refer. But once you listen to a great musical experience using sound reproduction at one time, you want it with more recordings.
I know it is not possible, but I would love all my recordings of big band sounded as good as my direct cut Sheffield LP of Harry James, as I can not dream of having the experience I once had at a beach near Barcelona listening to a real big band orchestra ten meters away from my hotel room balcony!

And I have no problems admitting that being an audiophile is not only listening to music - otherwise WBF would be mostly debating recordings. Those trying to reduce high-end to a set of electrical rules (that are surely relevant and we must thank you for your clear presentations) are just seeing the tip of the iceberg.

Thanks. Hopefully I have not come across as anti-listening, that would be ridiculous. Extremes I tend to abhor, finding the 100% subjective or objective point of view baffling if not flat out nonsensical. I like to know the "why" behind things like differences in sound among components. I have learned a lot and thus know there is much more to learn.

Onwards - Don

p.s. From my point of view, electrical properties determine synergy...

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I wasn't talking about musicians Tim. That is a chapter in a book. I was talking about recordings and their quality.

Really?

Standard Musician/recording engineer cliche. Heard it a million times.

I still want to know why sound and music are mutually exclusive. No they're trying to blame and pass the buck of their doing a mediocre job onto the audiophile.

Besides the author's condescending and exceedingly arrogant tone (yeah we all know professional musicians) many of these so-called new gen of recording engineers are nothing more than dial jockeys and ProTool fools (see there's the antonym for audio photos).

And who is he to pass judgement on why and what anyone should do with their audio system? It's enough if they are having fun. The idea of what works for me will work for you nauseates me. Oh, it's called the principle of individuality.

Even if you were talking only about recording engineers after the first sentence, my response wouldn't change much.

Tim

 

[FrantzM]

Don,

I am not addressing only electrically compatibility, but the famous system synergy. I have seen too many electrical compatible systems (correct impedance, power and room) sounding miserable to rely only with these rules. IMHO, they are needed, but not enough, and I know of many success case that embarrass these rules.

I think most of us just want to listen to THE MUSIC, as you refer. But once you listen to a great musical experience using sound reproduction at one time, you want it with more recordings.
I know it is not possible, but I would love all my recordings of big band sounded as good as my direct cut Sheffield LP of Harry James, as I can not dream of having the experience I once had at a beach near Barcelona listening to a real big band orchestra ten meters away from my hotel room balcony!

And I have no problems admitting that being an audiophile is not only listening to music - otherwise WBF would be mostly debating recordings. Those trying to reduce high-end to a set of electrical rules (that are surely relevant and we must thank you for your clear presentations) are just seeing the tip of the iceberg.

microstrip


However components sound to you is at the end because of their electrical properties ... Nothing else ... A reproduction chain is a technological construct .. It does what it does because of electricity so it is reducible to electrical parameters ... That is all there is to an amp .. electricity flowing .. No soul , no choice .. The notion of synergy means too many things, so I'll sidestep it. I can't discuss about it as if it exists but whatever it might be... You can bet it is all electrical... electricity related, thus it can be reduced to flow of electrons ...
That Music can be reduced to seven notes doesn't stop music from being infinitely rich and diverse; same with its reproduction.

 

[DonH50]

Uh, 12 notes, maybe? Agree with the rest of your post.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Surely. High-end systems coupled with appropriate rooms can deliver an exceptional high quality, but any small change or deviation in the system can bring the whole system out of tune, sounding almost miserable. In order to have the system operating properly, you have to be knowledgeable, open minded and experiment a lot, rely on real experts or sometimes just being lucky. .

Given a reasonably stable power source, once you have this electronically compatible system assembled, synergized, and performing properly, what changes? How does it change?

Tim

 

[JackD201]

Given a reasonably stable power source, once you have this electronically compatible system assembled, synergized, and performing properly, what changes? How does it change?

Tim

Big, fast, neutral transducers with fast and neutral electronics in a quiet room. Sounds like a recipe for heaven. Problem is, you still have to cook. You hear the good and the bad. In my case it's the little things like little ground loops, EMI and RFI hash, just little things that can add up and be distracting, a sizzle here a flop in the bass there. My pet peeve is congestion. I can tolerate a bit of hum. Fire and forget it isn't but when things are set up just so, it's all worth it. I got a power distribution box with star grounding last week, no more hum in the analog. Thank God.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Big, fast, neutral transducers with fast and neutral electronics in a quiet room. Sounds like a recipe for heaven. Problem is, you still have to cook. You hear the good and the bad. In my case it's the little things like little ground loops, EMI and RFI hash, just little things that can add up and be distracting, a sizzle here a flop in the bass there. My pet peeve is congestion. I can tolerate a bit of hum. Fire and forget it isn't but when things are set up just so, it's all worth it. I got a power distribution box with star grounding last week, no more hum in the analog. Thank God.

That doesn't answer the question or change it. Let's say in your case it requires a power distribution box with star grounding to get to what I called a "reasonably stable power source." Let's add reasonably quiet to that. You get that sorted out, then what changes? I know the power source can vary; was micro only talking about power? His post didn't read like that. It seemed, in fact, like he was saying that electrical integrity was a starting point at best and that good sound required extensive knowledge and experience, constant vigilance and frequent adjustment to stay good.

Again, what's changing? How?

Tim

 

[FrantzM]

I would admit that TT settings do drift with time and so does bias in Tubes .. else ... Not much IME

 

[Bill Hart]

That doesn't answer the question or change it. Let's say in your case it requires a power distribution box with star grounding to get to what I called a "reasonably stable power source." Let's add reasonably quiet to that. You get that sorted out, then what changes? I know the power source can vary; was micro only talking about power? His post didn't read like that. It seemed, in fact, like he was saying that electrical integrity was a starting point at best and that good sound required extensive knowledge and experience, constant vigilance and frequent adjustment to stay good.

Again, what's changing? How?

Tim

Tim: isn't it possible, aside from aging of a phono cartridge that different temperatures/relative humidity affect the compliance of the elastomers in the cartridge assembly? I find it necessary to adjust relative arm height downward to get better sound now; part of it may also be a function of the cartridge aging.
Tubes don't get better. I have tubes in the power suppy of my line stage. I replace them regularly. Tubes in the signal path degrade, and affect the sonics.
And, of course, AC power, which I think you already acknowledged can affect the sound. This summer, with all the high temps and humidity in the NorthEast, there has been huge demand on the grid. Leave aside somebody operating heavy machinery on the same line, the AC is just nasty sometimes. (I check the voltage, that seems to be within normal tolerances, but since I don't use a regenerator or power conditioner, I am captive to the quality of the AC power being delivered into my home).
I also wonder what all this wireless stuff does, but haven't researched it.
And, on the subject of heat and humidity, what does that do to speaker cones? Are they impervious? Granted, I have central air, which i leave on at nominal levels in the room when I'm not listening, and crank up before a listening session for comfort. (I prefer not to have the air conditioning running while I am listening, so there's a trade off between quiet and comfort- during breaks, I'll crank the air conditioning up again to cool off the room- remember, I'm running a fair amount of tube gear and it gets warm). Aside from changes in temperature and humidity, what does the airconditioning system do to the quality of power? (I'm on a dedicated panel/lines for my system, but it still derives power and common ground with the main power to the house). In the winter, a different set of conditions comes into play including static, which affects the vinyl. I've got to believe that has some affect on the sound as well. Aren't these all 'objective' variables?
And here's one more, that may be peculiar to me, given that my system is at the top of an old wooden house- there was some settling, whether of the elaborate lengths to which we went to get the turntable fully isolated from the springy floor, or just the house settling or whatever. The arm was dead level- essential for a linear tracker- but for some reason, the turntable/platter part was 'off' level. So, the notion that turntable settings can 'drift' goes beyond the turntable itself- the floor or rack that it sits on may no longer be completely level and that can affect sonics as well.

 

[JackD201]

That doesn't answer the question or change it. Let's say in your case it requires a power distribution box with star grounding to get to what I called a "reasonably stable power source." Let's add reasonably quiet to that. You get that sorted out, then what changes? I know the power source can vary; was micro only talking about power? His post didn't read like that. It seemed, in fact, like he was saying that electrical integrity was a starting point at best and that good sound required extensive knowledge and experience, constant vigilance and frequent adjustment to stay good.

Again, what's changing? How?

Tim

Does the signal run on top of the electrical noise? Actually it doesn't. Once the noise is in, it's part of the signal. It changes the signal. Change the signal, you change the acoustic output. I see where micro is coming from when he says "knowledge and experience". To fix a problem, you first have to identify it. There's the knowledge. Second you have to know what to do to fix it. There's the experience. Subtle distortions are just that, subtle. When things just sound wrong, normal people just shrug it off and try to listen through it. People are very good at that! Professionals and avid hobbyists however make it a point to know what to listen for and how to fix it. Unfortunately this can cause a cycle. The more you know, the more there is to bug the bejeezus out of you. Then there's the pesky matter of not knowing everything there is to know! I know it sounds dire but at least to me, trouble shooting can actually be fun. It's like one big puzzle. Since I treat it as such and don't sweat complication, practice makes almost everything easy anyhow, what I have is a multi-source system and all the connections and matchings that would entail. That's four playable arms/carts each with specific step up ratios and three digital sources being dedicated CDP, SACD and Server. My pre-amplification has so much reserve capacitance by design that they're practically battery powered. You can switch them off and you'll get distortion free music going for quite a few seconds. Stable isn't an issue but noise still is. My main TT uses micro-processor controlled DC motors. Stability isn't much of an issue there either. My nerdy side is showing. Yes, I chose these pieces for these very reasons. Jack likes applied science. It helps things sound good! I bought the star grounded item because I got a lightbulb moment from mep who built his own ground plane. I am not the DIY type so I bought something that would do pretty much the same thing. Nice! Cost less than my existing power conditioner too! Now that's just the electrical side. There's the acoustic side too. The room wasn't perfect when the designer/contractor signed off on it. He did come in to make two minor revisions based on my feedback. Speaker placement? Once set, I just hope nobody else touches them. It's happened and I refuse to have tape all over my floors.

The difference between sweating the small stuff and listening through it? I find I can listen for much longer periods of time with my full attention on the music, reading the liner notes and the books I have on the pieces being played because I'd already sweated the small stuff. When something is "off", it's an hour max and I end up doing something else until I have time to sort things out. Now I'm not after perfect. My standards are much lower but would still put me in the OC side of things by normal standards. I just don't like distractions!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Whart and Jack,

I get the power part of the discussion; I've had issues and had to chase them down myself. And whart I also understand time and aging components. But...and micro, correct me if I'm wrong here...I don't think that's what we're talking about. Micro's post is by no means one in isolation (I guess Frank was the ultimate example). Quite a few folks in the hobby seem to be saying that maintaining good sound requires constant vigilance and constant adjutment by the audiophile; that it is a highly interactive activity between man and his machines. Balanced, compatible electronics do not assure that two components will work well together. Getting the right components, the right balance, the right synergy doesn't seem to be any guarantee that the system will stay in balance. If it is just a matter of getting your power source as clean and consistent as you can, and trouble-shooting when the grounding system and isolation devices you've put in place stop working (and what changes to cause that?), plus changing tubes and cartridges, and eventually the components themselves as they audibly wear, I get that. But it doesn't seem to be that simple. It seems to be a constant struggle some audiophiles battle with. Do I have that wrong? Is it really just power integrity and wear and tear? And if not, what else changes and how?

Tim

 

[jkeny]

These recent posts are a good example of the thread topic. To me objectivists seem to believe in specs & the components behave as stated on the datasheet. Subjectivists seem to say that the specs are ideal conditions & the real world is far from ideal. Therefore we can have greatly varying performance from components & therefore from devices made from these components. Now I know the concept of "competently designed" will be forwarded in defence but my contention is that this is what the good high-end designers are involved in - measuring components & designing device that cope with known real world conditions.

One topic mentioned by JAckd was EMI, RFI hash, ground loops all very real world issues. How many devices are designed to minimise the influence of such issues? How many people know how to do this in their own set-ups? Do the datasheets give any indication of susceptibility of a components to these issues?

Therefore we can often have "synergy", we can have adjustments, we can have tweaking, we can have .....

A good recent example of this is Amir's article "Dynamic Range: How quiet is quiet?". How quiet is your room? Do you use an SPL meter? What does the reading mean? Is it one figure? Do you know the spectrum of the noise? So hiding behind this one figure is a wealth of information that might actually be of real benefit to analyse.


That's one of the reasons I mentioned a while back that a full set of measurements is need to characterise a device be it amplifier or whatever! Because the devil is in the detail & like in Amir's article using a single figure measurement can often lead us into wrong thinking!

BTW, although the statement "You can bet it is all electrical... electricity related, thus it can be reduced to flow of electrons ..." can't be denied, it really doesn't help. Much the same as stating that humans & their feelings, emotions, etc. are all just chemical reactions can't be denied but, in my opinion, is overly simplistic!

 

[rbbert]

I'm with Tim on this one. I do agree that either system sound or our perception of it (or both) does change on a day by day or even hour to hour basis, but I don't think it's anything we as individuals have much control over. Our state of mind or physical condition (for example hydration status), the temperature, barometric pressure and humidity, etc. all have to have an effect on both the sound of the system and our audio perceptions in general. None of that will be changed by tinkering with the components in a stereo system.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Jack -- One more question if you don't mind. I've run into the idea that electronic noise can attach itself to the signal and become a distortion of the signal itself, not just a contribution to the noise floor. I've looked around for an explanation of this phenomenon, though not exhaustively I'm sure, and I can't seem to find an explanation. Can you tell me how this works?

I'm with Tim on this one.

rbbert -- I appreciate the support, but I haven't come down on one side or the other of this one yet. I need to understand what it is we're talking about first.

Tim

 

[jkeny]

Tim,
I'm sure Jack will give a better & fuller explanation than I but my understanding is that anything which disturbs (modulates) the reference point (usually ground) will cause a modulation in the output signal. Don't treat noise as just a static variable, it modulates & therefore it cause modulation in any device which uses ground as a "fixed" point of reference