Objectivist or Subjectivist? Give Me a Break

Jack -- One more question if you don't mind. I've run into the idea that electronic noise can attach itself to the signal and become a distortion of the signal itself, not just a contribution to the noise floor. I've looked around for an explanation of this phenomenon, though not exhaustively I'm sure, and I can't seem to find an explanation. Can you tell me how this works?



rbbert -- I appreciate the support, but I haven't come down on one side or the other of this one yet. I need to understand what it is we're talking about first.

Tim

It's actually worse than that. The electronic noise becomes part and parcel of the signal. Like John said it modulates, which is a one word way of saying that it changes the proportionate voltage swings. Like Frantz said, equipment isn't sentient. A speaker driver only goes forward and backward as a direct result of the voltage (and mechanical impedance too actually) applied. Think of electrical noise as something akin to your band mate bleeding excessively into your guitar mic. Once he's in there, there's no scrubbing him out without affecting your own playing. The problem is, different noises are perceived differently. Some sound like an overlay or a bed like 50/60Hz hum or groove noise because when music starts playing, it's easily masked mainly because the noise is in a frequency range that we are not sensitive to. Some distortions like RFI audibly affect HF transient behavior. I'm not much of a digital guy but those that are well versed in the subject consider things like pre/post ringing, foldback and jitter artifacts as that kind of distortion mainly because these distortions fall into a frequency range we are more sensitive to. Both however are part of the signal.

More trivia :) Underdamped tonearms can saturate the core of a cartridge with excessive LF resonance and the effect is a loss in dynamic range. You won't hear the 8 or 10 Hz rumble but you will hear compression. My pet peeve. Oops I said that already. Hum can likewise saturate a voice coil causing it to heat up. Heat lowers efficiency, lower efficiency causes a decrees in dynamic range, chase it by upping the voltage with the volume contol and DAMN IT! Thermal compression! It happens to amps and voltage rails too.

This doesn't mean reducing these noises will avoid all of these effects. All of these happen to equipment with only musical material. That was my constant disagreement with Frankie. Stresses are stresses, musical material can stress too. Beware of burn-in discs by the way, some sweeps can fry circuits and tweeters.

Personally, I don't think too many things change once things are set up. In my experience, sound only seems to really suck if I've been on a long trip and the equipment is unused. A few hours of constant play at moderate levels usually does the trick. Shipping speakers by air typically causes a need for the same. It's cold in the cargo hold and driver surrounds sometimes stiffen up. Once in a while, I do come across some really vexing problems. A client called me over because there was a buzz coming from his left speaker. I'll be a monkey's uncle if I didn't think it was coming from his midrange driver. I went through the routine but still couldn't figure out what it was. I did notice that he went from the short wall to the long wall meaning he had had to dismantle his speakers and reassemble them. So, I dismantled them and reassembled them. It turned out that he had a loose spike on his mid and treble module. Problem solved. Two years later, he called me in again. He was back in the short wall. He had forgotten what the buzz sounded like but I didn't forget. Problem fixed in two minutes. I make house calls because he makes mean burgers. I will work for food. LOL. Strange and random things happen I guess and the more parts there are the bigger the probability is that something will happen. I don't think of it as vigilance, I mean if it will happen it will right? It's like the saying goes about guys with lots of bodyguards. If someone wants to kill you bad enough, they'll find a way. Best not to make enemies instead! :D

Ooo. One last thing. In my case, I don't change gear around much anymore since I'm pretty much locked in to my current preference sound wise. I guess that's one way of saying that I'm "synergized". If I were to change a preamp, amp or speakers however. It's almost back to square one. If I changed location it would really be back to square one! My limited experience tells me that what's flat on the bench is rarely flat in the field when the equipment is fitted into a system and they see dynamic loads be they succeeding gain stages or drivers. My goal however is always to hit an acoustic curve. Some like B&K (fairly constant slope), I like DIN 4 (Bass lift, flat in the middle, downward slope in the highs) as a reference point with an RTA. If I can manage to hit it on the head fantastic, close is still pretty good. It tells me the gear is not the problem, it's probably me! THEN I dumb it down a tad to be more forgiving :D I use The Stones for that! :D
 
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This is an interesting phenomenon. When by bandmate bleeds into my mic, his voice or instrument modulates alright, but it modulates with its own changes. What you're talking about would be the equivalent of his guitar bleeding into my mic and then, because it is in my mic, begining to change pitch and/or volume with my voice. That, of course, is rather absurd. What can happen in an electronic device is another question, I'm sure. Does it only modulate with volume, or does it modulate with frequency as well? Does this thing have a name?

Tim
 
Hmmm. I guess I used a weak analogy. Look at it this way instead. The mic only sees pressure and that is converted into voltage. Every succeeding gain stage makes a copy of the swings vs a reference point. Up and down the voltage goes. That's all a signal really is + and -. While you may hear him as separate and distinct he has changed the + and - from what it would have been if you were in an iso booth or alone. In some parts he might mask some if not all of your playing. It's the same thing with noise. It doesn't ride in a separate route to the drivers it becomes part of the signal itself at the point it is introduced and this in turn will be copied by the next gain stage and ultimately be part of what pushes the drivers. The common name is distortion ;)
 
Hmmm. I guess I used a weak analogy. Look at it this way instead. The mic only sees pressure and that is converted into voltage. Every succeeding gain stage makes a copy of the swings vs a reference point. Up and down the voltage goes. That's all a signal really is + and -. While you may hear him as separate and distinct he has changed the + and - from what it would have been if you were in an iso booth or alone. In some parts he might mask some if not all of your playing. It's the same thing with noise. It doesn't ride in a separate route to the drivers it becomes part of the signal itself at the point it is introduced and this in turn will be copied by the next gain stage and ultimately be part of what pushes the drivers. The common name is distortion ;)

Good. I like names I understand. This is a pretty specific distortion you're talking about, though, because it doesn't originate in the component or any of its parts. It comes from the outside. How is it differentiated in measurement from the distortions designers have some control over and would seek to reduce through better design?

And is there any way for designers to reduce the ability of this noise from getting into their components in the first place, or is it all happening at the power stage?

Tim
 
Noise can be introduced at any stage and can start in any passive component. It could be from something as simple as a cold solder joint. I don't think it can be avoided actually but can be minimized and what designers and manufacturers are doing now in measurement, design and execution cover it pretty darned well as a whole I think. By that I include mass market stuff and not just high end.

The thing to remember is that there are many kinds of noises that will manifest themselves as as many kinds of distortions. New ones are still being named. It's an ongoing process. If you are really interested in the more common ones here's a link to the book that started me down this slippery slope. I used it before going to Full Sail because I didn't want to be too green. A dozen years have gone by already? Dang. My copy came with redbook CDs not MP3 files. LOL.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18572.Critical_Listening_Skills_for_Audio_Professionals_With_CD_

A word of warning though Tim, it's harder to listen through something if you know what might be wrong and have an idea of how to fix it. It took years for me to learn to switch the critical listening switch off on command.
 
Hi

At the risk of losing my hard-earned audiophile creds :) .. I will state this: Given great rooms (Steve's, Mike L's, jackD201's or Wilson Ma's, there are many others here on the WBF but for now those come to mind) and speakers from the same individuals (Wilson X-2, EVO MM3, Von Schwekert VR-9, etc) attention to details , good power source, good grounding .. I can bet the following .. You will insert ANY preamp of the usual purportedly good amplifiers and preamps of course with electrical compatibility taken care of, in these systems and they will sound good... I mean ANY down to the lowliest amps in the audiophile hierarchy ... I would plunk an Emotiva preamp and amps in these systems, leaving everything else the same and likely the result will be good. Not as good as the current electronics but better than most systems around ... Whether it is hot and the Air Conditioner is broken or it is cold and the heat is off ... That it is raining or snowing ...

I would be the first to say that amps and electronics do not sound the same but the differences are not what we are trying to portray here. And a well designed and assembled system is not such a fragile thing that one has to be vigilant... If that is the case the system is not correctly assembled or designed and it becomes very difficult to listen to music on such a system.
 
Whart and Jack,

I get the power part of the discussion; I've had issues and had to chase them down myself. And whart I also understand time and aging components. But...and micro, correct me if I'm wrong here...I don't think that's what we're talking about. Micro's post is by no means one in isolation (I guess Frank was the ultimate example). Quite a few folks in the hobby seem to be saying that maintaining good sound requires constant vigilance and constant adjutment by the audiophile; that it is a highly interactive activity between man and his machines. Balanced, compatible electronics do not assure that two components will work well together. Getting the right components, the right balance, the right synergy doesn't seem to be any guarantee that the system will stay in balance. If it is just a matter of getting your power source as clean and consistent as you can, and trouble-shooting when the grounding system and isolation devices you've put in place stop working (and what changes to cause that?), plus changing tubes and cartridges, and eventually the components themselves as they audibly wear, I get that. But it doesn't seem to be that simple. It seems to be a constant struggle some audiophiles battle with. Do I have that wrong? Is it really just power integrity and wear and tear? And if not, what else changes and how?

Tim
Tim, the whole tonearm/cartridge thing may be more than wear and tear as I mentioned (temperature and humidity). And there are other details. The little sorbothane pads on my racks have to be refreshed periodically. I try to keep my contacts clean. Power- well, I bought an Equi=Tech wall unit for my next room, so hopefully i can minimize some of the grief from AC. In another thread, I have been discussing the sonic changes wrought by different decouplers under the tube power supply to my phono stage. It's all tweaker stuff, maybe it could be discounted as psycho-acoustics, but since i'm a bit of a psycho, i hear these things. :) And I will grant as Rbbt said, that some of it is mood, fatigue or general state of mind. There are times when I am relaxed and in the right state of mind for just taking in the music and it all sounds so good; i'm not oblivious to the shortcomings of the system, it just doesn't matter because I'm fully engaged by the music and the strengths of what the system can do so well. Other times, well....
I always like to think there's a reason. But, for me, until I get a new room and fully square away my AC power, I can't eliminate two huge variables over which I do have some control.
 
Hi

At the risk of losing my hard-earned audiophile creds :) .. I will state this: Given great rooms (Steve's, Mike L's, jackD201's or Wilson Ma's, there are many others here on the WBF but for now those come to mind) and speakers from the same individuals (Wilson X-2, EVO MM3, Von Schwekert VR-9, etc) attention to details , good power source, good grounding .. I can bet the following .. You will insert ANY preamp of the usual purportedly good amplifiers and preamps of course with electrical compatibility taken care of, in these systems and they will sound good... I mean ANY down to the lowliest amps in the audiophile hierarchy ... I would plunk an Emotiva preamp and amps in these systems, leaving everything else the same and likely the result will be good. Not as good as the current electronics but better than most systems around ... Whether it is hot and the Air Conditioner is broken or it is cold and the heat is off ... That it is raining or snowing ...

I would be the first to say that amps and electronics do not sound the same but the differences are not what we are trying to portray here. And a well designed and assembled system is not such a fragile thing that one has to be vigilant... If that is the case the system is not correctly assembled or designed and it becomes very difficult to listen to music on such a system.

That would be the crux of the matter wouldn't it? Still, Murphy's Law applies to even the most thoroughly thought out efforts. S____ happens. <<<shrug>>>
 
I got a new laptop not so long ago & my USB to SPDIF device didn't sound as good as before. I didn't have my old laptop to do an A/B test but I was sure that the sound was somehow flatter, less dynamic. I eventually tracked it down to the charger which was grounded & created a ground loop & CM noise on the digital signal. When I lifted the ground on the charger all sounded well again!

Edit: Would I call this a "night & day" difference - depends on your perspective - it certainly interfered with my enjoyment of the music as I knew how it sounded before! If I had changed speakers & achieved this level of improvement I would have said that there was a vast improvement in the new speakers - it's all relative :)

Another edit:
The point is that if I didn't have the previous reference sound from the original laptop, I wouldn't have questioned the sound & would have thought that this was how the USB-SPDIF device sounded. Without the previous reference point I would not have known the sound was actually dynamic & 3D rather than just OK! Until/unless you hear better sound, you often don't know that there is a problem with the sound!
 
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It's also my opinion that "synergy" is a catch-all phrase, a bit like jitter.
It encompasses the interactions between two devices & the "synergy" is between two devices that work better than other pairs. There is probably a good technical reason for this but without all the necessary measurements we use the term "synergy". Again it's the fault of the objectivists in not doing all the necessary measurements & then blaming subjectivists for using the term "synergy" :). I hope all realise that this is a joke but there's also some truth to it!!
 
That would be the crux of the matter wouldn't it? Still, Murphy's Law applies to even the most thoroughly thought out efforts. S____ happens. <<<shrug>>>

Sure seems to. I just built a new pair of LFE subs and ended up getting a new amp for them. I had it all working just fine and then it was time to rack the amp. I have a complex HT set-up, active crossovers EQ and mutiple amps all racked together. I never like disturbing the rack for that reason. Invariably a wire gets pulled a cord loosens up and sure enough the next thing you are chasing down either a low level hum or noise from somewhere.

Sure enough I ended up chasing down both hum and noise only to find that the problem ended up being a couple of loose AC plugs on 2 of the amps cords that got redressed when the new amp went in. Pulled them out and replugged them and all was well. Nothing like crawling around on the floor tapping cords trying to find the noisy one. Instead of taking a half hour it ended up taking an hour and a half.

Rob:)
 
Hi

At the risk of losing my hard-earned audiophile creds :) .. I will state this: Given great rooms (Steve's, Mike L's, jackD201's or Wilson Ma's, there are many others here on the WBF but for now those come to mind) and speakers from the same individuals (Wilson X-2, EVO MM3, Von Schwekert VR-9, etc) attention to details , good power source, good grounding .. I can bet the following .. You will insert ANY preamp of the usual purportedly good amplifiers and preamps of course with electrical compatibility taken care of, in these systems and they will sound good... I mean ANY down to the lowliest amps in the audiophile hierarchy ... I would plunk an Emotiva preamp and amps in these systems, leaving everything else the same and likely the result will be good. Not as good as the current electronics but better than most systems around ... Whether it is hot and the Air Conditioner is broken or it is cold and the heat is off ... That it is raining or snowing ...

I would be the first to say that amps and electronics do not sound the same but the differences are not what we are trying to portray here. And a well designed and assembled system is not such a fragile thing that one has to be vigilant... If that is the case the system is not correctly assembled or designed and it becomes very difficult to listen to music on such a system.

Frantz,

I have no experience with the electronics you are referring, but I have several times made similar experiences with a Quad 66 - 606 or a complete Thule system (as I have no audiophile credits I have to work and experiment to earn them) :). And I can assure you the difference in many systems, mine included, is nigh and day, even at low levels. All IMHO. I hope Jack, Mike and Steve chime on this one.
 
microstrip

I am even willing to accept that the differences will befit the "Night and Day" hyperbole .. My point is that these systems will sound good nonetheless. The Emotiva exemple was to make a point and I frnakly believe they would have acquired themselves comppetently enough .. Now if we go backward to the substance of my post .. Drop any of the current serious preamps-amps combo in the aforementioned systems, Brand such as: Burmester, ARC, Hlacro, VTL, CJ, VAC, Soulution, Balaboo, Zanden, Edge, Plinus, FM Acoustics, Spectral. Constellation, Krell, Mark Levinson, Pass labs, Rowland, Devialet, MBL, Mc Intosh, am I missing some some? There!! I use the all encompassing "etc" for the brands I am forgetting ... Those brands in in those systems in those rooms will sound magnificent... One may prefer the sound of the X combo to the Y but are we however willing to bet they won't all sound magnificent??? ...

P.S. I have more than suspiscion that your own system with your speakers and frontend is also excellent .. Take out your current preamp-amps combo change nothing else and replace with a combo from the aforementioned brands .. Likely superb sounding ... You may prefer your own or other combination likely will continue to sound stupendous ...
 
Night and day must be as subjective as the rest of it. To me it's the difference between the full light of the sun illuminating the path before me and stubbing my toes wandering around in the dark. I wouldn't choose that expression to analogize the difference between SOTA high end solid state and a Yamaha AV receiver, but YMMV. To my ears, the single biggest difference in audio electronics is the difference between active and passive systems. It's definitely more pronounced than the difference between an Emotiva and a high end solid state amp of similar output. And it can't even seem to get in the Audiophile consideration set. That, the over-the-top exaggeration of insignificant differences, and quite a few other things, feeds my skepticism. My skepticism is fat.

Tim
 
Just curious Tim. Have you heard the same speaker run actively and passively or are you comparing two categories? I ask because I've spent hundreds of hours with different pro-monitors and they all had their own characteristics. I've seen night and day between two actives of the same configuration and similar cabinet volume. I also spent a lot of time with sound reinforcement speakers run active. I once had modules built with a piezo tweeter, a fostex horn and a fostex 15" (I think I was channeling Motown LOL) it was switchable between passive and 3 way active (external amps). I can see Rob wincing, don't worry Rob we switched to JBL a couple of years later LOL. I did it for the smaller parties so we wouldn't have to lug too many racks and cables along. All together we could bring just 2 amps and not 4 (semi active since basshorns were still active). What the passive gave up in sonics was flexibility not quality per se. SPL and usable headroom was reduced, true, but not by much.
 
Just curious Tim. Have you heard the same speaker run actively and passively or are you comparing two categories?

No, I'd guess only a handful of people have.

I ask because I've spent hundreds of hours with different pro-monitors and they all had their own characteristics. I've seen night and day between two actives of the same configuration and similar cabinet volume. I also spent a lot of time with sound reinforcement speakers run active.

That is my experience as well.

I once had modules built with a piezo tweeter, a fostex horn and a fostex 15" (I think I was channeling Motown LOL) it was switchable between passive and 3 way active (external amps). I can see Rob wincing, don't worry Rob we switched to JBL a couple of years later LOL. I did it for the smaller parties so we wouldn't have to lug too many racks and cables along. All together we could bring just 2 amps and not 4 (semi active since basshorns were still active). What the passive gave up in sonics was flexibility not quality per se. SPL and usable headroom was reduced, true, but not by much.

There is no doubt that active can be done well or poorly or anywhere in between. But when it is done well, it's advantages amount to a lot more than a bit of headroom. Or at least that's what I hear. You make some bad enough choices and you can mask the advantages of active design with them, for sure, but I've heard it (active's advantage) even in some remarkably cheap monitors. To my ears, it's something you mentioned earlier in this conversation: coherence. Lack of congestion. And (or maybe it's all the same thing) a midrange clarity that evades passive systems until you're spending very serious money.

There's the rub, IMHO, and the one that feeds my skepticism about "high end" best -- you can get there passively, or very, very close, but it takes an awful lot of money. Put a fraction of that money into the actives and you re-set the bar again. Still, you can screw up the actives, it's been done plenty of times, but it doesn't seem to have nearly as much to do with the money. I can think of one remarkable little project studio monitor. Ugly as sin. Questionable build quality by almost any standard. Within their volume and FR range, I'd put them up against passive systems at almost any price range, and they would be competitive. $200 a piece, including 110 watts of amplification per channel. Remarkable clarity, coherence, resolution of detail...400 bucks and a DAC. And they are no where close to the best of the breed. They just punch way above their weight.

I've often wondered what a couple of pair, sitting on top of a sub in a wind tunnel melted, automobile finished cabinet would sell for in high end rooms. Of course you'd have to connect them to a stack of billet aluminum boxes full of weight with a lot of cable, and offer an upgrade path....:)

MHO. YMMV. I trust my ears, and this is what I hear.

Tim
 
Majestic_-_Left.jpgNo crossover beats active . For more money though.
 
View attachment 5063No crossover beats active . For more money though.

Theoretically, no crossover is the best. Of course, like everything else it depends on execution. The ultimate, for clarity, tonality, detail -- really, everything but imaging and bass "feel" -- is the single driver headphone system. No crossovers, no room problems. I understand it's not for everyone but it can do what it does extremely well for a pittance compared to most good systems. But there are single drive headphone systems from Sennheiser 800s (your supposed to say Stax here but they don't move me) down to the earbuds that come with your iPod. It's all in the implementation.

Tim
 
Night and day must be as subjective as the rest of it. To me it's the difference between the full light of the sun illuminating the path before me and stubbing my toes wandering around in the dark. I wouldn't choose that expression to analogize the difference between SOTA high end solid state and a Yamaha AV receiver, but YMMV. To my ears, the single biggest difference in audio electronics is the difference between active and passive systems. It's definitely more pronounced than the difference between an Emotiva and a high end solid state amp of similar output. And it can't even seem to get in the Audiophile consideration set. That, the over-the-top exaggeration of insignificant differences, and quite a few other things, feeds my skepticism. My skepticism is fat.

Tim

Tim,

OK, I can reduce the range to please you, although I believe most readers understand that night and day does not mean absence and presence. Make if sunny and foggy day, if you feel better with it. ;)

Do you have any real substance backed by your or others experience to support your views about active speakers?
 

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