Modern speakers vs Vintage speakers

[morricab]

Whether a horn beams at frequencies is down to the geometry of the horn.

A direct radiating tweeter will have a wide sweet spot for obvious reasons.

Yes I know. My point was that the directivity is still quite high and therefore sweet spot low for most horns except this waveguide like one for the JBL M2, which has very wide dispersion.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Look his Chanel amazing videos and sound ,new and vintage

https://youtube.com/c/SoundSommelier

 

[dwhistance]

Thanks a lof for your kind input.

I had used Lowthers for full range from 2003 to 2005 for two years.

But it has limitation of bass and dynamics.

The only reason that I consider Voxativ AC fieldcoil driver is the possibility of overcoming the above limitations.

But I am not in a hurry since I am happy with the sound from Altec A7 right now.

I’d be interested to know which cabinets and which Lowther drivers you used? The limitations you noted were probably due to the cabinets and maybe to a mismatched driver. Having followed lots of Lowther builds on forums over the years one of the things that generally strikes me is that there is a big tendency to think that the more expensive drivers such as the PM5A, PM4A or DX4 are always better than the cheaper ones like the PM6A so many people use the more expensive drivers in unsuitable cabinets. Changing for a “lesser” but better matched driver for the cabinets in use can dramatically improve sound quality, particularly bass. Although I have known this for years it was brought home to me recently at a demo of the Lowther TP1’s at Lowthers music room in Northampton. The cabinets started with PM2A’s installed which most would suggest were a good match for the TP1’s, however I thought the sound was quite “thin” with the hybrid amps they were using. As we were at Lowther there was a “spare” pair of PM6A’s available which were quickly installed in the cabinets. The sound dramatically changed gaining body and proper bass, so much so that I wouldn’t consider another driver in these cabinets if Inwas going to use a solid state or hybrid amplifier. On the other hand with my own 2A3 amplifier, which has a lesser damping factor, I might consider the PM2A though I would have to hear it with them first.

Although there is a “buzz” around field coils they aren’t a universal panacea and the same rules that apply to Lowthers are equally applicable to both Voxative and AER drivers and indeed drivers using field coils. Where field coils may have an advantage is that you can tailor them to different cabinets more effectively by varying the voltage and therefore the drivers characteristics.

Good luck with your experiments, I am quite jealous of your VOTT’s. I use Ocellia speakers at the moment but am intending to add some horns again next year assuming we can get our house extension done.

David Whistance

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I’d be interested to know which cabinets and which Lowther drivers you used? The limitations you noted were probably due to the cabinets and maybe to a mismatched driver. Having followed lots of Lowther builds on forums over the years one of the things that generally strikes me is that there is a big tendency to think that the more expensive drivers such as the PM5A, PM4A or DX4 are always better than the cheaper ones like the PM6A so many people use the more expensive drivers in unsuitable cabinets. Changing for a “lesser” but better matched driver for the cabinets in use can dramatically improve sound quality, particularly bass. Although I have known this for years it was brought home to me recently at a demo of the Lowther TP1’s at Lowthers music room in Northampton. The cabinets started with PM2A’s installed which most would suggest were a good match for the TP1’s, however I thought the sound was quite “thin” with the hybrid amps they were using. As we were at Lowther there was a “spare” pair of PM6A’s available which were quickly installed in the cabinets. The sound dramatically changed gaining body and proper bass, so much so that I wouldn’t consider another driver in these cabinets if Inwas going to use a solid state or hybrid amplifier. On the other hand with my own 2A3 amplifier, which has a lesser damping factor, I might consider the PM2A though I would have to hear it with them first.

Although there is a “buzz” around field coils they aren’t a universal panacea and the same rules that apply to Lowthers are equally applicable to both Voxative and AER drivers and indeed drivers using field coils. Where field coils may have an advantage is that you can tailor them to different cabinets more effectively by varying the voltage and therefore the drivers characteristics.

Good luck with your experiments, I am quite jealous of your VOTT’s. I use Ocellia speakers at the moment but am intending to add some horns again next year assuming we can get our house extension done.

David Whistance

Hi David,

Yes nice post there and fully agree with everything you wrote. I was about to write a post to say effectively what you say at the end regarding field coil - one of the main benefits is the tailoring of the driver parameters (by electrical means on the power supply) to the cabinet / speaker application. I think we often think a higher spl (sensitive) driver would be preferred for such systems but getting that increased spl is often a result in part of more flux in the gap which consequently can alter the t/s parameters suited for getting optimal bass. Quite often more excursion is needed.

 

[thomask]

I had some success by adding Fostex t925a supertweeter to Altec A7 resulting in more air and sparkle.

But sometimes I got the feeling that I got too much sparkle or even ringing.





Thus I ordered some 3uF caps from Amazon to have cutoff at 6.6 Khz instead of 5khz.

Although above two caps have same capacity, the latter appeared to give slightly sweeter sound.

Eva Cassidy's beautiful voice appears to have enough sparkle and clarity but without too much sibilants.

This Korean song also sounds right with good speed and rythm.

I will also test 2.5 uF and 2.2uF caps which give 8khz and 9khz cutoff respectively.


If I am set at the most desirable cutofff frequency, then I may order more expensive caps like Mundorf or Miflex caps.

 

[thomask]

By the way, I expect to receive Cayin 300b PP amp next Monday,

Thus I may give my opinion on it later next week.

 

[DasguteOhr]

View attachment 84480

I had some succes by adding Fostex t925a supertweeter to Altec A7 resulting in more air and sparkle.

But sometimes I got the feeling that I got too much sparkle or even ringing.

View attachment 84482

View attachment 84483

Thus I ordered some 3uF caps from Amazon to have cutoff at 6.6 Khz instead of 5khz.

Although above two caps have same capacity, the latter appeared to give slightly sweeter sound.

Eva Cassidy's beautiful voice appears to have enough sparkle and clarity but without too much sibilants.

This Korean song also sounds right with good speed and rythm.

I will also test 2.5 uF and 2.2uF caps which give 8khz and 9khz cutoff respectively.


If I am set at the most desirable cutofff frequency, then I may order more expensive caps like Mundorf or Miflex caps.

Use this Eva Cassidy song,to adjust cartriges the limited hot shot records.
Difficult to set cleanly with the highest dynamics in the voice. if that works perfectly, it works with every lp

Sounds good with altecs

 

[DasguteOhr]

Hi David,

Yes nice post there and fully agree with everything you wrote. I was about to write a post to say effectively what you say at the end regarding field coil - one of the main benefits is the tailoring of the driver parameters (by electrical means on the power supply) to the cabinet / speaker application. I think we often think a higher spl (sensitive) driver would be preferred for such systems but getting that increased spl is often a result in part of more flux in the gap which consequently can alter the t/s parameters suited for getting optimal bass. Quite often more excursion is needed.

A lowther Pm 2c needs a Horn for bass qts ~0.27 Around 70- 100 liters volume. Two in a Acousta 124

 

[thomask]

I’d be interested to know which cabinets and which Lowther drivers you used? The limitations you noted were probably due to the cabinets and maybe to a mismatched driver. Having followed lots of Lowther builds on forums over the years one of the things that generally strikes me is that there is a big tendency to think that the more expensive drivers such as the PM5A, PM4A or DX4 are always better than the cheaper ones like the PM6A so many people use the more expensive drivers in unsuitable cabinets. Changing for a “lesser” but better matched driver for the cabinets in use can dramatically improve sound quality, particularly bass. Although I have known this for years it was brought home to me recently at a demo of the Lowther TP1’s at Lowthers music room in Northampton. The cabinets started with PM2A’s installed which most would suggest were a good match for the TP1’s, however I thought the sound was quite “thin” with the hybrid amps they were using. As we were at Lowther there was a “spare” pair of PM6A’s available which were quickly installed in the cabinets. The sound dramatically changed gaining body and proper bass, so much so that I wouldn’t consider another driver in these cabinets if Inwas going to use a solid state or hybrid amplifier. On the other hand with my own 2A3 amplifier, which has a lesser damping factor, I might consider the PM2A though I would have to hear it with them first.

Although there is a “buzz” around field coils they aren’t a universal panacea and the same rules that apply to Lowthers are equally applicable to both Voxative and AER drivers and indeed drivers using field coils. Where field coils may have an advantage is that you can tailor them to different cabinets more effectively by varying the voltage and therefore the drivers characteristics.

Good luck with your experiments, I am quite jealous of your VOTT’s. I use Ocellia speakers at the moment but am intending to add some horns again next year assuming we can get our house extension done.

David Whistance

Thanks David for your kind input.

I had used pretty big enclore of more than 100L recommended by Mr Chung, my vintage guru.

But 6.5 inch full range driver has intrinsic limitation of dynamics and bandwidth.

I am lucky to get Vott in good conditiion at reasonable price.

But since I got it, I had spent much more mony on getting one more 300b pp amp and accessories.

 

[dwhistance]

Thanks David for your kind input.

I had used pretty big enclore of more than 100L recommended by Mr Chung, my vintage guru.

But 6.5 inch full range driver has intrinsic limitation of dynamics and bandwidth.

I am lucky to get Vott in good conditiion at reasonable price.

But since I got it, I had spent much more mony on getting one more 300b pp amp and accessories.

Thomas, I really think you need to hear some Lowthers in a good horn, even better a compound horn (front/rear loading). Although there is a company in the US that suggests that they are best in large bass reflex enclosures if you look at the T&S parameters of any of them you will see that they are better suited to horn loaded enlosures, either back loaded horns for the “lesser” drivers (DX2, PM6A) or front loaded for the more powerful ones (maybe DX4 but definitely PM4A). David

 

[dwhistance]

Thomas, I really think you need to hear some Lowthers in a good horn, even better a compound horn (front/rear loading). Although there is a company in the US that suggests that they are best in large bass reflex enclosures if you look at the T&S parameters of any of them you will see that they are better suited to horn loaded enlosures, either back loaded horns for the “lesser” drivers (DX2, PM6A) or front loaded for the more powerful ones (maybe DX4 but definitely PM4A). David

As a quick follow up from my earlier post I very much liked the TP1. Although I am sure there are better horns for Lowthers if you get a chance to hear a TP1 do so as it is very good.

 

[Solypsa]

Thomas, I really think you need to hear some Lowthers in a good horn, even better a compound horn (front/rear loading).

In a good example of this how low does the FLH extend?

 

[thomask]

I ordered Mundorf MCap EVO Oil 2.7uF 450VDC,

Mundorf MCap ZN 2.7uF 100VDC Mundorf MCap EVO Oil 2.2uF 450VDC Mundorf MCap EVO 2.2uF 450VDC to use with Fostex supertweeter for comparison.

 

[DasguteOhr]

View attachment 84489

View attachment 84490

I ordered Mundorf MCap EVO Oil 2.7uF 450VDC,

Mundorf MCap ZN 2.7uF 100VDC Mundorf MCap EVO Oil 2.2uF 450VDC Mundorf MCap EVO 2.2uF 450VDC to use with Fostex supertweeter for comparison.

you will be surprised how heavy the tin foil capacitor is, it is very good at inhibiting vibrations
I always use this to keep the highs clear and resolving, not disturbing. a great capacitor

MCap® EVO SilverGold.Oil♪◙ - Mundorf

www.mundorf.com

P.S
takes about 30 hours until it sounds good, it is best to hang a woolen blanket over the speakers and let it play overnight. shortens the time

 

[thomask]

you will be surprised how heavy the tin foil capacitor is, it is very good at inhibiting vibrations
I always use this to keep the highs clear and resolving, not disturbing. a great capacitor

MCap® EVO SilverGold.Oil♪◙ - Mundorf

www.mundorf.com

View attachment 84494
P.S
takes about 30 hours until it sounds good, it is best to hang a woolen blanket over the speakers and let it play overnight. shortens the time

I also ordered 9 ohm (12 watts) Vishay register (also using 3 micro F cap) to connect Fostex tweeter to amplier directly bypassing internal network.

It may sound more transparent.

 

[morricab]

I also ordered 9 ohm (12 watts) Vishay register (also using 3 micro F cap) to connect Fostex tweeter to amplier directly bypassing internal network.

It may sound more transparent.

You need to also consider the phase/time alignment of this supertweeter. If that is not correct you can create interference with the Altec that will impact the perception of balance considerably. It is not so simple as a crossover and plunking the tweeter down on top.

 

[thomask]

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[DasguteOhr]

Another thing from Lowther, the Lowther pm 2c is an awesome midrange driver. to elicit a good bass and straight frequency response. If it has to be impedance matched, this filter prevents it from screaming from 3 kHz. the bass impedance peaks need to be smoothed out so that it produces good lows.

For a 15 ohm lowther

 

[Addicted to hifi]

A lowther Pm 2c needs a Horn for bass qts ~0.27 Around 70- 100 liters volume. Two in a Acousta 124

Beautiful speakers and very nice music.

 

[thomask]

DECWARE High Efficiency Reference Loudspeaker from Lii Audio

Full-Range 100dB crossoverless single-driver loudspeakers.

www.decware.com

They also sell fully-assembled one at 3k$ shipped to your address.

Sensitivity: 100 dB
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Driver: Crystal 10
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