Metaxas Papillon

[Zeotrope]

Starting a thread for the bigger brother to the highly acclaimed Metaxas Tourbillon, the Papillon.

Some interesting facts about this machine:
• Kostas Metaxas certainly knows his stuff when it comes to tape machines: he has been professionally recording on tape for 30 some years, with over 300 concerts recorded.
• He owns studio-grade Ampexes, Studers, Otaris, as well as Stellavoxes, and has therefore benchmarked his machines against the best 'vintage' machines.
• The audio signal passes through only four or five transistors from input to output [reminds me of DarTZeel's amp design], where the signal in other machines is routed through scores of active electronic parts.
• Recording and playback circuits are discrete and therefore easy to diagnose for repair.
• Tape head pre-out
• Independent Dual-Capstans activated by two precision linear motors to make sure the speed across the heads is free of fluctuations and flutter. • Capstan "rollers" are only 4mm in diameter allowing them to spin up to 4-8 times faster than traditional 8-10mm diameter Capstan rollers and hence with much higher precision.
• Hi-tech BLDC motors from MAXON [Switzerland] are brushless and the inverse of the traditional high speed-low torque motors used in the past. Each of the 4 precision BLDC motors include 4096 increment tachometers and are driven by their own microprocessor/MOSFET drivers developed by MAXON before being controlled by the ARM-CORTEX main processor. (If you think a ~1980s machine can match this speed and torque accuracy, think again.)
• The biggest difference between recorders made in the 1960-1980s and today is the use of software-driven motors with controllers. Things like braking and speed accuracy to 0.001% are the reason the Papillon is well ahead of any machine manufactured in the past.
• All rollers and transport parts are machined from 316 Antimagnetic Stainless Steel to ensure an extremely long life and are easily accessible for the fine-tuning of springs and bearings to be able to optimize the sound quality through individual "voicing" of each machine.
• Everything along the tape path is easy to access with a simplified design.

Looking forward to hearing & seeing it!

 

[Zeotrope]

Compared to the Tourbillon, I think the main differences are:
• dual power supplies (one for the motors and one for the audio circuits)
• larger reel motors
• beefier tape path with more adjustments possible
• tape head pre-out
• better quality audio circuits

If anyone has more info on the differences, please update/correct this list.

 

[Zeotrope]

Another difference vs the Tourbillon is that the Papillon has a true balanced audio output.

Interesting video describing the way Metaxas designs the machines to be easy to fix and to be as robust as possible. I don’t see this focus on longevity and ease of access (all rollers, etc are easily removable) from Ballfinger or Analog Audio (not sure about United Home)…

 

[Zeotrope]

Great interview with Kostas about some of the design decisions he made to build the best new tape machines available today:

Some great insights about how modern tech has helped -- and hindered -- the process of designing a new machine, and how chasing specs like minimizing W&F can actually hurt the sound quality. Of course, we have seen this with other components (e.g., the DarTZeel amp specs are not the best... and definitely do not please the Audio Science Review forum crowd - but not to digress...!).

 

[Zeotrope]

Part 1 is more about how he started, his recording experience, etc.:

 

[stellavox]

Thanks!

 

[Tapetech]

and how chasing specs like minimizing W&F can actually hurt the sound quality

Yes, all of those engineers at Studer and Ampex were such fools.

 

[Zeotrope]

Yes, all of those engineers at Studer and Ampex were such fools.

He never said that at all. Quite the contrary. Watch it again perhaps?

 

[Tapetech]

I never said he directly denigrated Studer and Ampex engineers.

I was just making comment on his foolish belief that:

"how chasing specs like minimizing W&F can actually hurt the sound quality".

 

[Zeotrope]

Kostas has recorded over 300 albums over 30 years. In addition to building a complete line of high end components that are very highly regarded, and owning the top tape machines from the era. What’s your claim to being an expert??

Chasing stats has been flogged to death on Audio Science Review. DartZeel would sound terrible based on the stats - look at the signal to noise ratio!

 

[adrianywu]

I never said he directly denigrated Studer and Ampex engineers.

I was just making comment on his foolish belief that:

"how chasing specs like minimizing W&F can actually hurt the sound quality".

That's what people would say if they can't achieve decent specs.

 

[Zeotrope]

That's what people would say if they can't achieve decent specs.

Hahahaha. Ok. Good luck with that logic. A comment for Audio Science Review, not this forum. You’re still beating that old horse, aren’t you?
I’m getting tired of these “no new machines can best the vintage machines” bullshit and will just ignore future comments.

 

[treitz3]

Let's please stick to the topic at hand and not the member posting the response. No matter your view. Thanks.

Tom

 

[adrianywu]

Hahahaha. Ok. Good luck with that logic. A comment for Audio Science Review, not this forum. You’re still beating that old horse, aren’t you?
I’m getting tired of these “no new machines can best the vintage machines” bullshit and will just ignore future comments.

I think you are confusing the saying "good specs do not guarantee good sound" with " good specs are not necessary for good sound"

 

[Foxbat]

I think you are confusing the saying "good specs do not guarantee good sound" with " good specs are not necessary for good sound"

On top of that different parameters affect the sound in different ways: some very innocent while others very, very objectionable.

For instance, a bit of clean noise is easily overlooked, same for some FR variations, while others will smack you straight into your face - things such as odd order harmonics. W&F definitely belongs into that second group. Small diameter capstans are not good in that regard, so there might be the reason for some cavalier attitude towards it.

 

[Zeotrope]

I think you are confusing the saying "good specs do not guarantee good sound" with " good specs are not necessary for good sound"

I think you’re not understanding: great specs are not necessary for great sound.
DarTZeel’s preamp and 108/468 do not measure anywhere near the top of other components, yet sound much better than just about any other pre and power amp. SNR and noise are nowhere near world class, for example.

The Metaxas machines measure as well as the vintage machines. What that doesn’t capture is why they sound vastly better.
DarTZeel’s preamp and 108/468 do not measure anywhere near the top of other components, yet sound much better than just about any other pre and power amp.

 

[Foxbat]

The Metaxas machines measure as well as the vintage machines.

Every time I try to find its specifications I see W&F .25%. Is this the REAL number?

 

[adrianywu]

Every time I try to find its specifications I see W&F .25%. Is this the REAL number?

It is probably real, but it does not matter. The Nagra T's W&F is <0.032%, and even the lowly Revox B77 is <0.08%. But the Metaxas is better than all of them. All those folks who worked to reduce W&F were stupid, apparently.

 

[Zeotrope]

W&F measures are meaningless unless you know if weighing was applied and what the tape speed is.
Papillon W/F is 0.15% without weighting, but with weighting, is 0.09%. [not sure about tape speed]

The point is that chasing lower W/F is not going to lead to better sound. Something I believe, because you see it with other measures, like THD or SNR.

The members here will argue anything to preserve the apparent benefits of the vintage machines, so I'm not going to entertain this further.
Tape speed accuracy: .001%, FYI.

 

[Ampexed]

What brand and type of heads are being used on this machine? Heads like these vintage ones from PhotoVox which are on two of my machines aren't being made anymore as far as I know.