Bass Tightening

[jcmusic]

Well if he wants my cash he does!!! Yea and I guess I will have to just do that but, it seems to me that the folks that can help only want to go so far and then leave you just kinda hanging!!! Maybe it's just me maybe not!!! Anyway you weren't very much help either...

Hi JC, actually he does not have to tell you anything. JC you have to figure it out yourself.

Wendell

 

[theguesswho]

Hi JC, Well that was a bit churlish as I did offer my opinions. Neither of which you responded to.
I initially suggested different interconnects and power cords which are accepted audiophile ways of affecting apparent bass speed and definition. Since you did not respond to that I assumed you have good cables. Then you posted a graph with your freq response and I then suggested an equalizer. And again you did not respond to my post.

But I understand why now, and why I was wrong. I should have paid more attention to your initial post, where you say that you wanted to use a small amount of room treatment and do this inexpensively. So you all ready knew the answer! Why are you asking us?

Ethan gave you the answer several times, just buy a bunch of his bass traps. He is more than willing to sell you the appropriate amount of traps for your room. Please note that he has 55 traps in his room.

JC, if that really is your name, I am not sure why you want to measure anything. If you do not want to add an equalizer there really is no point, you know that the room needs treatment, just do that.

Apparently you are happy with the sound of your speakers and equipment, so nothing to change there. If you think that a freq response that looks like a heart attack about to happen is ok, then you don't need an equalizer. Or a change of equipment.

So you can pick up your marbles and go home or you can continue to read and learn. Nyal said you have all of the info to figure it out yourself or you can pay him to do it for you. Did you think he was going to analyze your room and results for free? I will do it for free, though, if you want my help. I am no industry expert though and remember you get what you pay for! But it seems rather easy. I am a bit of a geek and can figure this stuff out, or my name isn't Wendell Schlumpf. With a name like Wendell Schlumpf you better be good. I am, and the fact that I consider myself as a bit of a genius doesn't hurt either.

So if you know that the room needs acoustic treatment just do it and stop there. If you want a better freq response buy some equalizers. If you speakers and amps are incapable of sounding good and driving the room to the sound level pressure you need different equipment. Rather simple really. Just don't expect some divine intervention to save your room with either little or no treatment. Or a miracle to cure a bad freq response.

Wendell,
PHP143

 

[jcmusic]

Dude you are just full of info aren't you. Most of it self opinionated of which some might be usefull the rest is a guess... I asked specific questions for a reason not that your opinions are unuseable but, I am at a point where I want expert advice on a public forum from those that want to GIVE it!!! Anyway to help you understand more clearly I am very happy with what I am hearing with one exception. I would like to tighten up the bass a little without an equipment change or moving stuff around because I can not do it. So room treatment seemed the likely place to start, I have an eq but am somewhat a purist and do not want to use it unless there is no other way hope you understand. My biggest problem is I do not know if I did the measuements correctly, and how to interpt them. So the help I need is how to read and understand the measuements. I don't want to just jam up my room with anything that is unneeded I like it simple. I am not a self proclaimed genuis so I need to learn how to do the things that I don't know how to yet. I will just leave it at that I don't like ranting or wasting time but, you wanted a response so you don't think I am ignoring you...

Hi JC, Well that was a bit churlish as I did offer my opinions. Neither of which you responded to.
I initially suggested different interconnects and power cords which are accepted audiophile ways of affecting apparent bass speed and definition. Since you did not respond to that I assumed you have good cables. Then you posted a graph with your freq response and I then suggested an equalizer. And again you did not respond to my post.

But I understand why now, and why I was wrong. I should have paid more attention to your initial post, where you say that you wanted to use a small amount of room treatment and do this inexpensively. So you all ready knew the answer! Why are you asking us?

Ethan gave you the answer several times, just buy a bunch of his bass traps. He is more than willing to sell you the appropriate amount of traps for your room. Please note that he has 55 traps in his room.

JC, if that really is your name, I am not sure why you want to measure anything. If you do not want to add an equalizer there really is no point, you know that the room needs treatment, just do that.

Apparently you are happy with the sound of your speakers and equipment, so nothing to change there. If you think that a freq response that looks like a heart attack about to happen is ok, then you don't need an equalizer. Or a change of equipment.

So you can pick up your marbles and go home or you can continue to read and learn. Nyal said you have all of the info to figure it out yourself or you can pay him to do it for you. Did you think he was going to analyze your room and results for free? I will do it for free, though, if you want my help. I am no industry expert though and remember you get what you pay for! But it seems rather easy. I am a bit of a geek and can figure this stuff out, or my name isn't Wendell Schlumpf. With a name like Wendell Schlumpf you better be good. I am, and the fact that I consider myself as a bit of a genius doesn't hurt either.

So if you know that the room needs acoustic treatment just do it and stop there. If you want a better freq response buy some equalizers. If you speakers and amps are incapable of sounding good and driving the room to the sound level pressure you need different equipment. Rather simple really. Just don't expect some divine intervention to save your room with either little or no treatment. Or a miracle to cure a bad freq response.

Wendell,
PHP143

 

[prerich]

Dude you are just full of info aren't you. Most of it self opinionated of which some might be usefull the rest is a guess... I asked specific questions for a reason not that your opinions are unuseable but, I am at a point where I want expert advice on a public forum from those that want to GIVE it!!! Anyway to help you understand more clearly I am very happy with what I am hearing with one exception. I would like to tighten up the bass a little without an equipment change or moving stuff around because I can not do it. So room treatment seemed the likely place to start, I have an eq but am somewhat a purist and do not want to use it unless there is no other way hope you understand. My biggest problem is I do not know if I did the measuements correctly, and how to interpt them. So the help I need is how to read and understand the measuements. I don't want to just jam up my room with anything that is unneeded I like it simple. I am not a self proclaimed genuis so I need to learn how to do the things that I don't know how to yet. I will just leave it at that I don't like ranting or wasting time but, you wanted a response so you don't think I am ignoring you...

Ethan gave you some very useful information. He was actually interpeting your graphs for you. I'm no where as good as Ethan (he's actually helping me but I can't get good pics of my entire room - so I'm going to just post my graphs in another forum). However, I can see that your decay in your waterfall plots are rather lenthy (how long the signal streaches out at the bottom - Ethan's link to reading acoustic measurments covers this). This is the bass ringing that Ethan is talking about. It will make your bass muddy and linger too long. Bass traps can greatly improve this.

Waterfall plots:

left to right top line represents frequency response
Back to front represents frequency decay or how long a frequency is hanging around displayed in milliseconds.

I hope this helps - but listen to Ethan, he knows his stuff!!!

 

[prerich]

Here's a good link that will help you understand waterfall plots.

http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2011/05/rew-understanding-decay-and-waterfall.html

 

[NorthStar]

OP, I looked at the pictures of your room that you provided (thx) very extensively and carefully.
It is a very challenging room because it opens on many other parts of the house, and has several walls and corners and wood reflective surfaces.
Plus your corner horn speakers aren't small either.

I analysed various propositions in order to improve the tightness of the bass in your particular room.
And I was overwhelmed more than once. ...And it is quite rare that I would come to that point (I usually go to extreme in resolving one's less than ideal situation).

Again, your room is extremely challenging and even more so by the choice of the speakers in it.
I was first to reply to your original first post (without your room's pictures), with bass traps, and more subs for better bass balance.
You don't need subs (and you don't want any anyway), and bass traps is your experimentation goal, I think.
- You aren't into Room Correction and EQ system electronic and that's fine because you decide so yourself.

I mentioned Ethan a while back because he has seen more acoustically challenging rooms than I and that it is his job (me it's just a hobby; with a deep passion).
What he can do at its best is to suggest to you on where to experiment (key word) with the bass traps positioning in your room, and the acoustic panels positioning, which he already told you and to which I agree.

I understand, and I respect your room and your point of view and everything else in trying to tighten the bass in that room.
Best, I think, is to get some bass traps (make your own to save money), and experiment with their positioning (at the left or right of each speaker, on each side of your front window, behind under the clock, near the corner going into the passage way, ...), and you could also make your own acoustic/absorbing panels and experiment with them too; on your side walls (at ear level) and just behind your shelves, and in front of them, and behind your chair, and just experiment because this is how you EQ your own sound in your own room with your own budget that you're satisfy with.

Ethan (and me), and Don, and everyone else; we got nothing for sale, only free suggestions, because after all this is an audio forum with great individuals and experts. :b

Cheers,
Bob

P.S. For what you are saying, bass traps are your ticket for tightening your bass on the go, in your room, affordably; I think.

 

[jcmusic]

Thanks very much for you reply that is usefull info.

Ethan gave you some very useful information. He was actually interpeting your graphs for you. I'm no where as good as Ethan (he's actually helping me but I can't get good pics of my entire room - so I'm going to just post my graphs in another forum). However, I can see that your decay in your waterfall plots are rather lenthy (how long the signal streaches out at the bottom - Ethan's link to reading acoustic measurments covers this). This is the bass ringing that Ethan is talking about. It will make your bass muddy and linger too long. Bass traps can greatly improve this.

Waterfall plots:

left to right top line represents frequency response
Back to front represents frequency decay or how long a frequency is hanging around displayed in milliseconds.

I hope this helps - but listen to Ethan, he knows his stuff!!!

 

[jcmusic]

Again thanks for the link for sure was of some help...

Here's a good link that will help you understand waterfall plots.

http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2011/05/rew-understanding-decay-and-waterfall.html

 

[jcmusic]

Bob,
Thanks so much for trying to help me out and for the valueble info, I never thought that it was going to be this involved. seems like such a small issue oh well I am now also considering a parametric eq as a last resort. I don't mind trying the bass traps but I don't want to have a room full of them. Also which ones to get there are so many different kind. Do I want panels for the walls or corner traps etc..???

OP, I looked at the pictures of your room that you provided (thx) very extensively and carefully.
It is a very challenging room because it opens on many other parts of the house, and has several walls and corners and wood reflective surfaces.
Plus your corner horn speakers aren't small either.

I analysed various propositions in order to improve the tightness of the bass in your particular room.
And I was overwhelmed more than once. ...And it is quite rare that I would come to that point (I usually go to extreme in resolving one's less than ideal situation).

Again, your room is extremely challenging and even more so by the choice of the speakers in it.
I was first to reply to your original first post (without your room's pictures), with bass traps, and more subs for better bass balance.
You don't need subs (and you don't want any anyway), and bass traps is your experimentation goal, I think.
- You aren't into Room Correction and EQ system electronic and that's fine because you decide so yourself.

I mentioned Ethan a while back because he has seen more acoustically challenging rooms than I and that it is his job (me it's just a hobby; with a deep passion).
What he can do at its best is to suggest to you on where to experiment (key word) with the bass traps positioning in your room, and the acoustic panels positioning, which he already told you and to which I agree.

I understand, and I respect your room and your point of view and everything else in trying to tighten the bass in that room.
Best, I think, is to get some bass traps (make your own to save money), and experiment with their positioning (at the left or right of each speaker, on each side of your front window, behind under the clock, near the corner going into the passage way, ...), and you could also make your own acoustic/absorbing panels and experiment with them too; on your side walls (at ear level) and just behind your shelves, and in front of them, and behind your chair, and just experiment because this is how you EQ your own sound in your own room with your own budget that you're satisfy with.

Ethan (and me), and Don, and everyone else; we got nothing for sale, only free suggestions, because after all this is an audio forum with great individuals and experts. :b

Cheers,
Bob

P.S. For what you are saying, bass traps are your ticket for tightening your bass on the go, in your room, affordably; I think.

 

[NorthStar]

Bass traps = usually in the corners. But also can be used near windows, near speakers, near outside corners, ...
Acoustic panels = usually on the side walls at ear level. ...Also can be used on the front and rear walls, even on the ceiling at the reflective points.

* You want to tighten the bass: right now that bass from your speakers is all over and with uncontrolled standing waves, so no real definition to speak of. You need to control that bass, with bass traps. ...Ask Ethan what type is best, in your room.

If you are uncertain, and uncomfortable with money; try to find a trusty local dealer who would lend you some bass traps for few days.
Just give him your credit card as a collateral. ...Or cash. That's how it works on this planet. :b

 

[jcmusic]

Bob,
That is what I am unsure about Ethan told from the begining bass traps but, he never said what type. So do i want the kind that fit into the corners, or the kind that you have to use two of them where two walls come together to form a corner??? The clock will be moved so i can put something on the rear wall, and the themostast can be moved as well to put something there in that small corner. These are the things I need to know...

 

[NorthStar]

The bass traps I'm talking about are the circular (tube) type; or on stands or without.
They come in various sizes (thickness; 6-18" diameter) and lengths (usually 4-5 feet tall).

Ethan knows which brand are the most effective. ...And you can even build your owns, with the proper material and just a bit of knowledge on how to.
...Even adding your own artistic touch with the material covering. ...Both for the bass traps and acoustical absorptive panels. Heck I can also make my own reflective columns (glass or aluminum tube lenses).

There are also those absorptive ceiling-wall corner triangles.

Links abound from all over, and few were already provided here.

 

[Nyal Mellor]

Bob,
That is what I am unsure about Ethan told from the begining bass traps but, he never said what type. So do i want the kind that fit into the corners, or the kind that you have to use two of them where two walls come together to form a corner??? The clock will be moved so i can put something on the rear wall, and the themostast can be moved as well to put something there in that small corner. These are the things I need to know...

Before you go randomly buying bass traps you need to figure out what the problematic frequencies are.

Generally speaking most commercial bass traps start to become ineffective around 70Hz so if you are trying to deal with a 40Hz issue you will need a lot of them. There are, on the other hand, some products that are purpose designed for those low frequencies...

You also need to know how bad your issues are to buy the appropriate number of traps. A 10dB peak will require a lot more bass traps than a 3dB peak.

So you need to know what problems you are trying to solve.

 

[prerich]

@jcmusic....in your situation, corner traps in the front are impossible because your speakers use the corners to complete your bass horn. Ethan can tell what type to use in this unique situation. Bob has a good ideal wih the cylinder traps. Nyal is also correct - looking at your plots, you want to control those long delays. Your room looks very reflective too - you may need heavy (I mean heavy) drapes on that window between the Khorns, I own Cornwalls myself.

 

[jcmusic]

I was thinking i could use bass traps above the speakers in the front corners, or would that be a waste of time? I have rug to hang where the window is I just have not done it yet...

 

[prerich]

I was thinking i could use bass traps above the speakers in the front corners, or would that be a waste of time? I have rug to hang where the window is I just have not done it yet...

Klang my own noggin'!!!! There are traps for the tops of the ceiling in the corners - I would ask Ethan for a recommendation as to which ones. So yes corner traps are not out of the question (I was thinkiing full corner traps - which are not feasible for Khorns - but corner ceiliing traps are do-able)!!!

 

[jcmusic]

I have some new measurements but don't know how to convert them from.dat to something I am able to post as an attachment.

 

[prerich]

I have some new measurements but don't know how to convert them from.dat to something I am able to post as an attachment.

Open your measurement in REW, look at the camera on the left hand side, click it and save your message as a .jpeg.

 

[jcmusic]

Ok thanks.

 

[NorthStar]

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