Are High-End Cables a Scam?

[fas42]

I have no doubt that a Nordost Valhalla speaker cable sounds different from an Transparent Opus MM2 in my system. And I, as many others, would like to know why ...

An analogy: try to balance a broom on the end of its handle on the floor, head of the broom on the top. Now, that's what I would call unstable! If you did manage to do it, the slightest breeze or vibration would cause it to topple. Now, to me, a lot of systems have been adjusted to this same level of twitchiness -- every minute thing you do will make a difference. Therefore my advice would be to improve the stability of the system, by eliminating elements which exaggerate any distortion being generated.

Frank

 

[tony ky ma]

Tony,

JBL uses the same technique - many 9V batteries are used just to polarize the film capacitors in their excellent Project Everest DD66000 flagship speaker. They are a reputed speaker manufacturer - they are a genius.

Audioquest also uses this technique in their cables - they are cable manufacturers, the technique is just a scam ...

Hi Microstrip
I did this tweak almost 10 years ago with a AC to DC power supply, 60v for speaker cable, +15v and -15v for inter connect, come with the best result. but will not effect for use in power cord or tonearm cable
tony ma

 

[FrantzM]

Tony,

JBL uses the same technique - many 9V batteries are used just to polarize the film capacitors in their excellent Project Everest DD66000 flagship speaker. They are a reputed speaker manufacturer - they are a genius.

Audioquest also uses this technique in their cables - they are cable manufacturers, the technique is just a scam ...

Tony

I frankly don't know how JBL uses the DC voltage to polarize their capacitors in their flagship speakers ... I suppose such capacitors are used in their crossovers, where the polarization of capacitors is important.. You don't polarize the caps ..well they may not work, I would think.. Now let's go back to the active shield of the cable .. What does it do? What does it shield the conductor from? What are the physics art play there? Current physics as I understand them say there shouldn't be ANY change ... so how am I supposed to qualify an item (expensive by the way) which use such thing that does nothing electrically but for some interesting reasons some people when they see it purport to hear a difference.. Knowledge removed ??? I am close to certain such perceptions of differences will plunge in the abyss of statistically insignificant

@microstrip

The FR will not vary with change in R. All frequency components will be affected equally if only R changes ... No change in FR with change in R only, everything else remaining equal

 

[microstrip]

@microstrip

The FR will not vary with change in R. All frequency components will be affected equally if only R changes ... No change in FR with change in R only, everything else remaining equal

Sorry, it will change. It is all there - I hope you believe in Roger Russell (former McIntosh Laboratory loudspeaker designer)

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#damping

See the graphs or frequency response variation and explanation. I quote "What happens when the resistance gets too high? First, there is power lost in the wire and the speaker will not play as loud. More important, as the resistance in series with the speaker increases, it makes the amplifier look more like a current source. This means the speaker frequency response will tend to follow the rise and fall of its impedance curve. "

BTW, please read also the JBL PROJECT EVEREST DD66000 TECHNICAL WHITE PAPER about their choice of capacitors. I will skip the part on resistors, it will make some people sick ...

"Capacitors are constructed using polypropylene foil, which is known for having minimal distortion caused by dielectric absorption nonlinearities.The mid-, high- and ultrahigh-frequency networks employ battery bias to operate the capacitors effectively in a Class A mode".

I do not agree with this ambiguous explanation, Audioquest has a better one in their site.

 

[Robert]

Well, of course those PAD speaker cables cost $18k, because Jim Aud will come to your home and sit on them for the best sound. I think his ars provides a superior dielectric and wire pre-warming properties.

 

[FrantzM]

microstrip

I will leave it at that .. The resisitance added in series are in now way what one should expect from any adequate cable.. . No wire one would use to drive your speaker would have such resistance ... So this is a case on an unrealistic extreme just to prove a point .. Else everything else being equal, normal, very small change in resistance (moving from a 14 AWg to 12 or 10 or even less ) don't affect FR.. Capacitance and inductance will ...

I am not sure I understand JBL explanation

As for Audioquest ... the least said the better ...

This from their pamphlet on Cable Theory...

In an ABX set-up, the listener does not know whether or not there has been any equipment change at
all. ABX testing is not a question of how a fixed but blind “A” compares to a fixed but blind “B”. Because
there are too many unknowns, the ABX test becomes primarily an opportunity for embarrassment.
Context is everything, and the ABX set-up is one very distorted context, much too far removed
from the purpose of an audio system. ABX fans believe that a lack of repeatable hierarchy proves
there are no valid differences. Others of us believe the same evidence proves that the ABX test is an
invalid methodology

I rest my case and leave the discussion on resistance....

 

[Gregadd]

There is some truth there.
First the person taking the test should have no stake in the outcome. Only then will he feel comfortabllbe with saying I hear no difference.
A staistically insignificant result say 5 out of five proves neither negative nor the posivte. It is consisitent with guessing, not determinative proof of guessing. Given a choice of A or B most will feel compelled to pick one.

 

[tony ky ma]

Tony

I frankly don't know how JBL uses the DC voltage to polarize their capacitors in their flagship speakers ... I suppose such capacitors are used in their crossovers, where the polarization of capacitors is important.. You don't polarize the caps ..well they may not work, I would think.. Now let's go back to the active shield of the cable .. What does it do? What does it shield the conductor from? What are the physics art play there? Current physics as I understand them say there shouldn't be ANY change ... so how am I supposed to qualify an item (expensive by the way) which use such thing that does nothing electrically but for some interesting reasons some people when they see it purport to hear a difference.. Knowledge removed ??? I am close to certain such perceptions of differences will plunge in the abyss of statistically insignificant

@microstrip

The FR will not vary with change in R. All frequency components will be affected equally if only R changes ... No change in FR with change in R only, everything else remaining equal

Hi Microstrip
In my limited knowledge and experience, I don't know the explanation of active shielding is correct or not, but it real works, not for blocking interference or reduce noise level, it give more lively and more detail, sound end in longer period, the reason I guess L,C,R, resistance is less delay frequency transfer speed compare to the other two, so resistor will not change sound quality too much, music is not a single tone, is a lot of harmonic frequencies combined , signal through a capacitor will delay speed in different frequency, so when they reform again in the air those harmonic frequencies are not in the right timing make sound change, so expansive cap can sound so different to the cheap cap, same happen to inductance too.looking inside of a amp, coupling cap is in used, if no voltage different in both end of the cap do not sound good as voltage there, this is quite sure, because that voltage will help less delay in transfer speed, back to the cable, material and the way of construction create small amount of self capacitance and inductance, I let the cable under a DC voltage potential to eliminate those small amount of self capacitance and inductance make sound better, I can't prove with measurement, all by listening, I tried many different voltage too and I think it will be cause by the cable's voltage and current in use, so power cord and tonearm cable doesn't work in this way
tony ma

 

[microstrip]

Hi Microstrip
In my limited knowledge and experience, I don't know the explanation of active shielding (...)

Tony,
The name active shielding is misleading in this application. The purpose of this DC polarization is to change the dielectric properties of the insulator materials with an additional static electric field. It is the same type of effect you have during break in of film capacitors. As currently there are no "scientific" models for reproduced music using high end systems, people feel free to fantasize about mysterious physics to explain the audible differences. But an incorrect explanation or ignorance of the physics does not destroy the effect.

BTW, most of the time people mix the terms audio science and the use of science based technology in audio, but they are completely different things.

 

[Speedskater]

I think that microstrip's explanation is perfect. "active shielding" or "guarding" is sometimes used for high impedance electrometer measurements in the laboratory. Not at all sure how they could help an audio signal.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

The results of a ton of invalid ABX tests are thrown around on the internet, tests that are really nothing more than casual blind listening with no controls that reach nothing close to a statistical sample and establish little, if anything, resembling evidence, much less proof. Please don't take them seriously; I certainly don't. But this old excuse...

Context is everything, and the ABX set-up is one very distorted context, much too far removed
from the purpose of an audio system.

...is like saying we can't differentiate between two bites of apple, not because they are from the same orchard, tree and piece of fruit, but because we usually don't eat apples in this room. Utter nonsense.

Tim

 

[DonH50]

I have used guarding, active shielding, and d.c. bias as required for ultra-precision measurements. Measurements usually an order of magnitude or more below the minimum audible threshold through an interconnect cable (e.g < 100 uV, or about 90 dB below a 1 Vrms full-scale signal). If you can hear the difference, I suspect very high impedances and/or very poor cable dielectrics.

FWIWFM (not much!) - Don

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

There is some truth there.
First the person taking the test should have no stake in the outcome. Only then will he feel comfortabllbe with saying I hear no difference.
A staistically insignificant result say 5 out of five proves neither negative nor the posivte. It is consisitent with guessing, not determinative proof of guessing. Given a choice of A or B most will feel compelled to pick one.

There might be some truth here if you're talking about a couple of guys from hydrogen audio who have no idea what they're doing running "tests" in their living room. If you're talking about professional, carefully controlled listening tests, heck, even if you're talking about proper use of an ABX Foobar plug-in, no one is asking anyone if they "hear a difference." The subjects are asked to identify A or B. A control, X, is used. Enough trials are run to exceed the margin for error and reach a statistically significant sample. Significant results are reached. It is a long-established methodology that is good enough for everything from pharmacology to soft drinks. The problem, is that it is specifically designed to bi-pass our expectations, to avoid what we would like to believe and expose what we actually perceive. And too often, that is not in the best interests of audiophile beliefs and audiophile manufacturers' business models.

Tim

 

[Gregadd]

Maybe I misunderstood. I thought the ABX comparator worked like this.

A& B are known and then you try to match them to the the unknown X. So in fact there are only two variables.

 

[MarinJim]

All I know is the best sound quality on earth, is what I like. I mean, and not to be too obvious, I only like what I like. Am I right? Of course not! Am I wrong? Of Course not!

 

[Lee]

While I don't understand paying $30K for Nordost Odin, I can only observe that I hear material improvements from using the better cable. I have had good luck with Cardas Golden Reference, Kimber, and Black Cat.

I do not always find price to correlate directly with sound quality.

I use Gutwire B-16, Verastarr, and Shunyata for ac cords and that has made a difference.

 

[microstrip]

I do not always find price to correlate directly with sound quality.

It is part o the game. There are no "better cables" per se, but there are cables that in a certain system sound better for some people.

If a type of cable does not match your system , just buying a more expensive does not result immediately in better sound.

If you never found a usd 10000 cable that sounds better than your USD 10 cable your are either a very lucky man or have not looked enough ...

 

[z06gal]

Well, I've read this entire thread and now I don't know if I am Col Flagg or Goldberg. Lol

 

[Scott Borduin]

I once did a lot of Googling trying to find out if anyone had ever tried to actually measure speaker cables under representative conditions. I found exactly one report which actually describes such a test, measuring 3 different cables into loudspeaker loads with a spectrally complex input signal. The results were pretty interesting:

http://www.eetimes.com/design/audio...kers-Effects-of-amplifiers-and-cables--Part-5

All of the cables exhibited significantly different, non-linear transfer functions under the test conditions, and all of them affected the connected amplifier differently. Given the magnitude of the differences shown, it's hard to believe that human listeners would not be able to hear the differences, at least with the continuous test signal used here.

Of course, the differences between these cables are obviously due to differences in their electrical properties (duh). So even if you could determine which of these cables is more "accurate" in this very specific set of circumstances, the point of the OP stands: couldn't you achieve those electrical properties at a reasonable cost?

 

[microstrip]

I once did a lot of Googling trying to find out if anyone had ever tried to actually measure speaker cables under representative conditions. I found exactly one report which actually describes such a test, measuring 3 different cables into loudspeaker loads with a spectrally complex input signal. The results were pretty interesting:

http://www.eetimes.com/design/audio...kers-Effects-of-amplifiers-and-cables--Part-5

The same author, Philip Newell, wrote an interesting article about cables in HifiCritic some years ago. Basically he concluded the same as shown in this article : that the practice of separating the frequency range into narrower bandwidths seemed to reduce the demands made on the cables, and that this technique would allow to use cheap and inaudible speaker cables.

This was an audiophile DIY mod some decades ago : removing the passive crossover from the speakers and putting it close to the amplifier using almost no wire, using long wires between the units and the crossover. It seems there was some truth in it ...