AudioKinesis Swarm

Folsom

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Has anyone done a SWARM with Rel T5 or T7. I ask as I don't want boxes the size of the Audiokenisis in my room. They are just too bid. This is my living room and audio does not trump a pleasant living space. I need very small and able to be hidden. I would probably use the Longbow to get signal to the subs.

The Debra version is slimmer.
 

Kingrex

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Its still a big box. 2 feet tall. That is a lot of visual attention.
 

Folsom

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Its still a big box. 2 feet tall. That is a lot of visual attention.

Well I guess there's a lot of factor. I haven't seen all of your place. I find when they're even 2 feet tall if they're basically all snug up against a wall they are fairly unnoticed.

I personally would find them a little less obtrusive if the color (which you can change some with DEBRA) blends in.

Anyways, those subs you mentioned could work. Integration might be tricky unless you buy a decent controller like Marchand WM8 (well, maybe two of them). And then maybe put a HumX on each subwoofer. Not sure if you'd need a second preamplifier to feed the WM8's.
 

Kingrex

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Well I guess there's a lot of factor. I haven't seen all of your place. I find when they're even 2 feet tall if they're basically all snug up against a wall they are fairly unnoticed.

I personally would find them a little less obtrusive if the color (which you can change some with DEBRA) blends in.

Anyways, those subs you mentioned could work. Integration might be tricky unless you buy a decent controller like Marchand WM8 (well, maybe two of them). And then maybe put a HumX on each subwoofer. Not sure if you'd need a second preamplifier to feed the WM8's.
Why would I want an external crossover. The Rel all have internal crossover, phase, gain, slope?
 

Kingrex

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Folsom

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Q is the amount of damping. It's extraordinarily useful for bass.
 

Kingrex

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With Audio Kenesis it means you can stuff a port with a plug? So it's tuning the woofer by reducing the volume of the box?
 

Kingrex

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I'm by no means against Audio Kenesis. Its just a lot of fairly large real estate. The Rel T7 and T5 are quite small. Its the only reason I was considering them. It Audio kenesis offered a version with 12 x 12 boxes I would be inclined to try them.
 

Folsom

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You can tune by plugging the port if output is too high (box has to be a little bigger to allow that to work ok I assume). I have no idea if they could make a cube, I suspect it wouldn't go as low or work as well? Question for @Duke LeJeune . The REL can use an EQ to make it work since the amp is built in.

I found adjusting Q is about as important as having phase for some stereos.
 

Kingrex

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Rel wrote me back. They do have a point I have wondered about with a SWARM

Thank you for providing this information. For strictly 2-channel systems, we recommend using a stereo pair of subwoofers with one dedicated to each main speaker channel. In our experience adding additional subwoofers placed throughout the room for a 2-channel system can negatively impact the timing of the system, and can result in a less seamless blend with the main loudspeakers

Even though people say bass is not directional, its waves are interacting with other waves. Couldn't this create timing and blending errors?

As an interesting point, Rel, JL Audio, SVS and others are all smart people wanting to sell equipment. You would think they would be testing their gear in different configurations to find what works best. Heck, if they could sell 4 subwoofers instead of 2, wouldn't they be saying "YES" to a swarm. Put 4 of our woofers in a room to create the greatest return? Why do you think they are leaving all that money on the table and saying it does not work. Use 2. Or stack them

Some of our subwoofer models allow for stacking, which will result in up to six subwoofers being used in the system, though this is somewhat different than the swarm approach since the three subwoofers on each side will be daisy-chained and will still be essentially functioning as left and right channel subwoofers.

Here they are trying to sell more, but they are not advocating to spread them around the room. Yet with the Longbow and other wifi options, it would be easy to pitch to consumers.

I'm not at all saying a SWARM does not work. I am just wondering why the industry leaders seem to have tried the approach but non are advertising it as an option and the one I reached out to said they did not find it to work satisfactorily.
 

Folsom

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Ya.. The timing stuff is all bullshit. They just don't want the difficulties that come with someone trying to setup something more complicated or that steals thunder from their subwoofers sounding overwhelming thumpy.

"blending" errors are modes and nodes. The point of the swarm is literally to reduce "blending" errors.

A swarm isn't distinctly required to have a good sound, but sometimes it's the only thing that works in a room as well.
 

Lagonda

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Ya.. The timing stuff is all bullshit. They just don't want the difficulties that come with someone trying to setup something more complicated or that steals thunder from their subwoofers sounding overwhelming thumpy.

"blending" errors are modes and nodes. The point of the swarm is literally to reduce "blending" errors.

A swarm isn't distinctly required to have a good sound, but sometimes it's the only thing that works in a room as well.
I don't even think REL even has full phase adjustment on their top subwoofer :rolleyes: Folsom, does the Marchand have continuous phase adjustment ?
 

Folsom

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I don't even think REL even has full phase adjustment on their top subwoofer :rolleyes: Folsom, does the Marchand have continuous phase adjustment ?
No, because it's an equalizer. It should be used in conjunctions with something that has phase (not required for say subwoofers in the main speaker). The Dayton SA1000 has full control of Q and phase, but it's an amplifier so it would require converting the signal to line level on the speaker output. It's adjustable enough to match about anything if the subwoofer itself can. Thing is I'd be afraid to try to match a sloppier subwoofers with a massive surround with something more particular as you'll probably just not get there. The smaller the woofer the more excursion you need and the more inherently somewhat sloppy it's probably going to be. By sloppy I mean not damped. The problems with subs is you can't add damping to them in a way that is meaningful with feedback beyond a particular amount before it's counter productive so most of it has to be inherent in the driver - but you can undampen a well dampened driver with something like the SA1000 or XM8.
 
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Lagonda

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No, because it's an equalizer. It should be used in conjunctions with something that has phase (not required for say subwoofers in the main speaker). The Dayton SA1000 has full control of Q and phase, but it's an amplifier so it would require converting the signal to line level on the speaker output. It's adjustable enough to match about anything if the subwoofer itself can. Thing is I'd be afraid to try to match a sloppier subwoofers with a massive surround with something more particular as you'll probably just not get there. The smaller the woofer the more excursion you need and the more inherently somewhat sloppy it's probably going to be. By sloppy I mean not damped. The problems with subs is you can't add damping to them in a way that is meaningful with feedback beyond a particular amount before it's counter productive so most of it has to be inherent in the driver - but you can undampen a well dampened driver with something like the SA1000 or XM8.
I like the new Wilson X over, stereo, continues phase, and some EQ functions, but regretfully not enough choices of slope for me.
 

Folsom

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I like the new Wilson X over, stereo, continues phase, and some EQ functions, but regretfully not enough choices of slope for me.

If it had Q it'd be pretty ideal. If you have less modes and nodes the need for as strong of a slope is going to decrease some, as the blending errors will be less.
 

Lagonda

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If it had Q it'd be pretty ideal. If you have less modes and nodes the need for as strong of a slope is going to decrease some, as the blending errors will be less.
I cross over around 100 HZ, 24 or 48 sounds best, Wilson does max 18.
 

Folsom

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I cross over around 100 HZ, 24 or 48 sounds best, Wilson does max 18.

Ok. Ya, there's probably a hump somewhere near it where it sounds loud and undefined? A null maybe, but I'd guess a hump.
 

Lagonda

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Ok. Ya, there's probably a hump somewhere near it where it sounds loud and undefined? A null maybe, but I'd guess a hump.
Phase becomes real important when you cross over that high too. :rolleyes:
 

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