American Sound AS-2000 Installations- Far East (Tango)

[marty]

Here is a link on Amazon. Here are the Gotham gac4 star quad with Amphenol. The same seller does other rca plugs if you wish. There are also other Gotham cables - there is one super low capacitance one, which on paper would make a lot of sense for phono applications. I can definitely say, without reservation, that it is the quietest cable I ever heard. It has double screen and star quad and is pro microphone cable so unsurprising really.

3 Meter RCA Cable Pair - Gotham GAC-4/1 (Black) Star-Quad Balanced Audio Interconnect Cable with Amphenol ACPR Die-Cast, Gold Plated RCA Connectors - Directional : Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo

3 Meter RCA Cable Pair - Gotham GAC-4/1 (Black) Star-Quad Balanced Audio Interconnect Cable with Amphenol ACPR Die-Cast, Gold Plated RCA Connectors - Directional : Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo

www.amazon.co.uk

It shouldn't be a mystery as to any cable manufacturer that Gotham uses for their various cables. They are listed plainly, but you have to know where to look.

 

[Solypsa]

Gotham is a bulk cable manufacturer and also sells built interconnects. 'Worlds best cables' makes interconnects from various manufacturers including Gotham.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

It shouldn't be a mystery as to any cable manufacturer that Gotham uses for their various cables. They are listed plainly on their listings, but you have to know where to look.

View attachment 97963

Have you tried them, Marty?

 

[marty]

Have you tried them, Marty?

Bill
I tried some Mogami's years ago and they were quite good. I haven't tried any recently. I did try a $15 Canare USB recently. Not bad also,. but not in the same league as some others (that were far costlier). I heard ddk's system and Ki Choi's systems several years ago, both of whom use some pretty inexpensive wire. Nobody seems to be complaining. That should tell you a lot!

I would suggest that we not de-rail this thread any further and move cable discussions to another thread.
Marty

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Who's horn viewpoint are we talking about and what are they, I never heard such a thing? Tone, tonal depth and tonal range all are considered detail, if a speaker has that much resolution what is it that you believe it's missing. Specifically please and examples would be good.

not mine. but just read this thread from pages 60 to page 70 where all sorts of different horn based speaker's sonic character's are described. not all agree about it. and that's not my thing. but it's clear not one size fits all.

sure, heard a few horns and they all sound different. never lived with any since my college days and K-Horns 5 decades ago now.

To really have a conversation we need examples of these sins of omission and what's needed for natural realistic sound and what you mean by simpler designs. It's too broad a statement as it stands,

i was responding to a broad statement myself. agree there are many specific cases of all types of speakers. which really is my main point. hate broad brushes too.

what do you mean by simpler design?

you should ask Graham about that, he brought it up.

Throwing a bunch of drivers in a box isn't a sign of complexity. There's such a thing as sophistication in design, best minimalists understand this very well.

+1.

I doubt anyone was guilting you Mike, it's always a personal choice! Plenty of proof that technology alone doesn't guarantee results!

david

said for effect, i don't feel that is happening. tech is just the tools. what we do with it is the question.

 

[bonzo75]

I would suggest that we not de-rail this thread any further and move cable discussions to another thread.
Marty

how can you avoid cable discussions in a ddk thread.

 

[PeterA]

This was a thread about ddk's turntable design and installation at Tang's place, a part of a thread series of installations. It also serves as a type of system thread with the exciting addition of his new speakers and videos. Some great content here.

 

[the sound of Tao]

another perspective.

i think like anything we rely on good design of the pieces to have the capacity to potentially result in music cohesion. and true that more complex speaker systems are more challenged to be cohesive. but i guess i don't agree that there is an unobtainable flavor of simplicity from more complex systems. maybe musical character aspects unique to drive types, both positive and negative. sure. for some this might equal the flavor of simplicity. or maybe it's just a flavor. that too much musical information is missed in the trade off for simple. you listen for that 'one magic thing' and miss other things of value.

which 'horn viewpoint' is correct? the one where you get lots of tone but relatively miss the details, or the other way? it's all flavors at the end of the day. i'm sure some do both, and there are many shades of balance on those things. just like more complex designs.

yet i agree that simpler approaches more likely have sins of omission than sins of commission. and that given a choice that failing might be preferred between the two.

i feel no guilt or regrets having a full range system. and enjoy it's coherency. no, it does not sound like a horn, but i think it sounds like music. so can horns.

Given that I am only projecting (crystal ball gazing perhaps even) about the direction I see design happening any more detailing or going further would be just more of my conjecture Mike. That it would likely take David’s thread then too far off topic is not where or what I aimed for… but I do see something that relates a bit (loosely) to this thread and was one of the primary triggers of the idea of simpler in design for me is a correlation to 2 way horns at David’s, Peter’s and now with the Klangfilms coming to Tangs. So for me recognising that 2 way horns are something that I feel represents fundamental simplicity and regularly resonates for me as a kind of best compromise of type (again for me).

I’m not at the top end but I’ve got reasonable box speakers in Harbeth 40.2s and good panels in Magnepan 20.7s and both do music but just not as believably or convincingly as the 2 way horns I have. I’ve just shifted across over time to realise that I could live happily with just simpler 2 way horns but not live just with the other more complex speakers even though they still aren’t crazily complex. The Maggie 20.7s do cohesion really well but still not with quite the absolute compelling immediacy still and it’s only having the 2 way horn OBs here makes that distinction obvious for me.

I see that I’ve built a strong and embedded listening expectation over the last few years that is reinforced by a similar precedent in David’s direction with his speakers and in systems upcoming at Tangs and at Peters as two way horn speakers admittedly in systems that operate at quite another level from mine… but still something quintessential in all their videos resonate with some characteristic that I hear here which is an underpinning immediacy and level of cohesiveness and wholeness which for me is the big draw and something that I’ve not heard from other speakers. But still that is not to say it can’t happen with other speakers.

All said it is all still only conjecture on my part that the correlation is coming out of the similar simplicity in both horn based speakers and in simple 2 way crossover approaches. I’m sure the SET thing plays in here also. So it is quite likely also a simple amp speaker combination factor thing happening as well.

 

[Tango]

Most of the energy that you mean comes from the front-end. The Neumann DST is big in sound,

A different point of view on Neumann DST in case readers are looking for data points. I have three. All original without refurbishing. There is slight sound variation between samples but is likely from aging. All three samples do not have "big" sound that bloat the image size. Cello, violin, guitar, drums, brass instrument, etc never sound any bigger than the vdh I am using. The tone of Neumann is just more balance top to bottom. One may perceive as sounding more complete but not bigger. It does not expand sound. Even more resolution than the vdh. You may get a sense of more width but that comes from the retrieval of ambient. Rostropovic's cello is still the same size not any bigger but the venue could be heard wider. Or I may have misinterpreted Walter66's meaning of "big".

 

[ddk]

A different point of view on Neumann DST in case readers are looking for data points. I have three. All original without refurbishing. There is slight sound variation between samples but is likely from aging. All three samples do not have "big" sound that bloat the image size. Cello, violin, guitar, drums, brass instrument, etc never sound any bigger than the vdh I am using. The tone of Neumann is just more balance top to bottom. One may perceive as sounding more complete but not bigger. It does not expand sound. Even more resolution than the vdh. You may get a sense of more width but that comes from the retrieval of ambient. Rostropovic's cello is still the same size not any bigger but the venue could be heard wider. Or I may have misinterpreted Walter66's meaning of "big".

DST has a quality that’s very rare among cartridges; actual mass! You sense presence of real instruments more than any other with it and as you mentioned without exaggeration and hype. It’s extremely symbiotic with the AS2000 because of bass quality, you’re not going to get the same mass and presence with any other tt, even the EMT 927. I keep repeating myself but it’s all about the bass, AS2000, SME 3012-R plus the DST is the ultimate vinyl front end for now, of course IMO & IME. Ortofon SL15 is the closest cartridge I know of that has similar quality of mass and presence but it’s not forgiving, setup must be perfect or it will sound thick and rolled off.

david

 

[DasguteOhr]

All said it is all still only conjecture on my part that the correlation is coming out of the similar simplicity in both horn based speakers and in simple 2 way crossover approaches. I’m sure the SET thing plays in here also. So it is quite likely also a simple amp speaker combination factor thing happening as well.

If you are interested, I can explain to you technically why a cinema loudspeaker from 1951 sounds so fascinating. has something to do with its frequency response tuning.i would say there was a genius at work. of course also the materials used, for example NAWI membrane developed by telefunken.

Nawi membrane: non-detachable membrane. Special shape of loudspeaker membranes that avoids the emission of disturbing overtones and thus ensures natural reproduction over the entire sound range.

 

[Walter66]

A different point of view on Neumann DST in case readers are looking for data points. I have three. All original without refurbishing. There is slight sound variation between samples but is likely from aging. All three samples do not have "big" sound that bloat the image size. Cello, violin, guitar, drums, brass instrument, etc never sound any bigger than the vdh I am using. The tone of Neumann is just more balance top to bottom. One may perceive as sounding more complete but not bigger. It does not expand sound. Even more resolution than the vdh. You may get a sense of more width but that comes from the retrieval of ambient. Rostropovic's cello is still the same size not any bigger but the venue could be heard wider. Or I may have misinterpreted Walter66's meaning of "big".

Unfortunately, thats not what I meant with the word "big in sound". Sorry, but you misinterpreted this.

We talked about the energy your system creates compared to my systems lack of energy on the videos. So I tried to compare your DST to my modified SPU's. I had the chance of comparing a replica DST with a SPU in my System. What stunned me, was the greater quantity of energy the DST created.

This has nothing to do with a wider soundstage, bigger instruments on that imaginary stage or a deeper stage. Thats all artificial to me and not at the heart of the music source, what matters to me is the amount of energy a frontend is able to create. And the first notice, when auditioned the DST on an original Klangfilm Eurodyn (field coild version) was even that increased amount of the energy. Its not about different tonal attributes, I was far away from analysing the sound differences of both pick up systems, all I was refering to was that plus on the energy level. And that is a result of the bigger magnet that is being used with the Neumann compared to the SPU, I think.

But everyone may see it different, its only a personal, subjective viewpoint because I do know, that energy in music has a source. And two short throw alnico magnet woofers with a stiff paper cone don't do this energy release from alone, they need a source input to be able to create this. And thats the combination of an analog frontend with a proper amp.

 

[ddk]

Unfortunately, thats not what I meant with the word "big in sound". Sorry, but you misinterpreted this.

We talked about the energy your system creates compared to my systems lack of energy on the videos. So I tried to compare your DST to my modified SPU's. I had the chance of comparing a replica DST with a SPU in my System. What stunned me, was the greater quantity of energy the DST created.

None of the replica DSTs I heard matched the sound of original Neumann. Ortofon SL15, all versions with built-in or dedicated outboard transformer have a lot of the DST sound and energy but must be setup accurately and a compatible tonearm.

This has nothing to do with a wider soundstage, bigger instruments on that imaginary stage or a deeper stage. Thats all artificial to me and not at the heart of the music source, what matters to me is the amount of energy a frontend is able to create. And the first notice, when auditioned the DST on an original Klangfilm Eurodyn (field coild version) was even that increased amount of the energy. Its not about different tonal attributes, I was far away from analysing the sound differences of both pick up systems, all I was refering to was that plus on the energy level. And that is a result of the bigger magnet that is being used with the Neumann compared to the SPU, I think.

But everyone may see it different, its only a personal, subjective viewpoint because I do know, that energy in music has a source. And two short throw alnico magnet woofers with a stiff paper cone don't do this energy release from alone, they need a source input to be able to create this. And thats the combination of an analog frontend with a proper amp.

You’re not wrong Gina, on it’s own the Eurodyn and dare I say any other speakers don’t generate this energy by themselves; to be clear we’re not discussing some stupid sub shaking the floor type energy. The energy you're hearing in the videos come mostly from the mid frequencies and IMO extremely important to creating a natural realistic experience, perhaps the final frontier of reproduced sound. Front end and electronics play a part for sure but they’re not the only source of it, there are other things going on which I've shared with Tang in his current setup. Additionally the design of this baffle incorporates full resonance control so I can push the sound and energy into the room as much as I want, the same idea works with a box as well.

It’s interesting that you picked up on it from these basic videos the environmental phone mic is very good at picking up this energy even if it's not much good with bass, but the energy isn't from bass.

david

 

[Walter66]

In fact it could be a general difference in sound character of our speakers. I'm not after an overpronounced and dominating middle freq. sound reproduction, although I know it's important. There were some occasions when it was possible to audition the Euro's and they all sounded different.
So everyone ist aiming to trim the system in a way he prefers.

This was the sound of Klangfilm Euro High End Munich:

 

[ddk]

In fact it could be a general difference in sound character of our speakers. I'm not after an overpronounced and dominating middle freq. sound reproduction, although I know it's important.

Neither am I! We were discussing projection quality and palpable physical energy not midrange dominant or midrange forward sound. Definitely for a full range and balanced sound when setting up too.

There are many reasons for differences in our sounds.

There were some occasions when it was possible to audition the Euro's and they all sounded different.
So everyone ist aiming to trim the system in a way he prefers.

For one with anything vintage condition is key, you can’t always tell by simply looking at it or from a short listen in an unknown setup. People make sonic decisions starting with the first power cord of the system, some are good and some aren’t, you need to understand that and have experience with the components before making on the fly judgements.

This was the sound of Klangfilm Euro High End Munich:

Might be wrong but it sounds like a dub not an actual recording of the room at a show, not that it matters. In any case this is a good example of a modified and/or incomplete speaker. Baffle design is more for aesthetic quality not sound. A poor example to be used as some kind of reference point.

david

 

[Walter66]

Might be wrong but it sounds like a dub not an actual recording of the room at a show, not that it matters. In any case this is a good example of a modified and/or incomplete speaker. Baffle design is more for aesthetic quality not sound. A poor example to be used as some kind of reference point.

david

David,
an audio fair will fail to deliver "reference points" for excellent listening. An audio fair is fun to listen to different systems. It's a show. You'll simply be fooled to think attending an audio fair will show some reference points for listening.

Don't think that the baffles are just for aesthetics. A23 would have never attended such an audio fair with a poorly sounding speaker, that could have destroyed their reputation easily. Once they've won the award for "Best sound of the show"with a different installation. They always tried hard to optimise their audio systems, but on fairs, you'll never know what happens with the sound in a new room, new acoustics. Its all a gambling with many unknown parameters.

This was the only example I could find for the Euros at this audio fair and it is intended, as the other examples of complete systems, to compare things, not to judge the absolute sound quality recorded on an iphone. No mobile phone will record the truth about those systems, they only can give a glimpse. Some are better, some are worse.

Best, Walter

 

[bonzo75]

In fact it could be a general difference in sound character of our speakers. I'm not after an overpronounced and dominating middle freq. sound reproduction, although I know it's important. There were some occasions when it was possible to audition the Euro's and they all sounded different.
So everyone ist aiming to trim the system in a way he prefers.

This was the sound of Klangfilm Euro High End Munich:

that’s not the sound of the room the audio has been placed later over the video. Not of a system

 

[Walter66]

Well, that's just your opinion man. A well respected one.
But the company who did this video are professionals, well known for their show reports.

https://www.hificlube.net/videos/

Just have a look at their website. The other report videos have the same excellent quality in sound.
Do you really think that all of their showroom reports are fake?

I can clearly listen to background voices in the Klangfilm video, so how did they manage to do that?
And the speakers do have the characteristic middle frequency bump, is that a fake, too?

Just because this video sounds better than the average amateur video doesn't mean it has to be a faked one.
Think this is just precious time wasting. Have fun with your system and so long, amigos!

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Well, that's just your opinion man. A well respected one.
But the company who did this video are professionals, well known for their show reports.

https://www.hificlube.net/videos/

Just have a look at their website. The other report videos have the same excellent quality in sound.
Do you really think that all of their showroom reports are fake?

I can clearly listen to background voices in the Klangfilm video, so how did they manage to do that?
And the speakers do have the characteristic middle frequency bump, is that a fake, too?

Just because this video sounds better than the average amateur video doesn't mean it has to be a faked one.
Think this is just precious time wasting. Have fun with your system and so long, amigos!

The Dude Abides

 

[No Regrets]

Classical may be more your cup of tea Bill. I like the way the speakers present the whole picture of concerto. With this setup the violin has more woody sound than my Cessaro and the balance between violin and orchestra is more even. But If I play with Cessaro you will hear so much excitement from violin strings less woody and the orchestra becomes secondary.

Interconnect cables David using are Gepco, Belden and Belkin Synapse. For me, Gepco, Belkin Synapse and Gotham GAC4. I am out of my office a few days I will look up the model for you to be more specific when I go to office.

Best,
Tang

Hello Tang,

I've really enjoyed listening to this video of yours.... How I wish I could experience it in person vs just thru my MacBook Pro.
Could you please share with me the specific lp that is playing...Which label, released when...etc. I would like to search for it so that I can listen to it on my system. I love this rendition!

Best wishes,
Don