Master Built-What are Owners Hearing That They Didn't Hear With Other Cables

bonzo75 · Sep 22, 2016

Al M. said:
My system is good enough at retrieving spatial information to tell me how "big" the sound is supposed to be, also from a good number of large-scale recordings. But portraying the sound as supposed to be big, and as actually being big, are two different things. Yes, my system can have a surprisingly big sound (and several people have commented on that on my system thread), but that doesn't mean it approaches the size of the real thing. A large system in a large room can do this more closely, but even it will never duplicate the real thing either. Yes, perhaps in size an orchestra from one third into the hall, but not from up close. According to Steve Williams, the system of JackD's brother in the Philippines can, but if that were actually the case that would be an exception. It has really large speakers in a really large room.

Big horns are excellent at doing both large scale and orchestra. In fact, Pietro uses his giant Yamamura horns more for small scale. For orchestra, you need horns with good bass integration and space.

Btw, my choice of Apogees was mainly based on Beethoven 9 and Mahler 2 and Scheherazade, but also on the Three Tenors CD and Bach Cello. Is that small scale? If you only have a tenor or a bartitone singing, I assume that is small scale, but then Apogees bring in that whole hall ambience, and that ambience to me is large scale (mileage varies with room acoustics). With SET and horns you can get a more intimate/close in feel.

Al M. · Sep 22, 2016

bonzo75 said:
Big horns are excellent at doing both large scale and orchestra. In fact, Pietro uses his giant Yamamura horns more for small scale. For orchestra, you need horns with good bass integration and space.

Btw, my choice of Apogees was mainly based on Beethoven 9 and Mahler 2 and Scheherazade, but also on the Three Tenors CD and Bach Cello. Is that small scale? If you only have a tenor or a bartitone singing, I assume that is small scale, but then Apogees bring in that whole hall ambience, and that ambience to me is large scale (mileage varies with room acoustics). With SET and horns you can get a more intimate/close in feel.

You still need a very large room for proper large scale. Yes, ambience is large scale, and my system/room can portray it in spades, but you still need proportional size of imaging when it comes to small-scale music.

Al M. · Sep 22, 2016

JackD201 said:
There's scale and there's relative scale. That is the great thing with near field listening. Think using an iPad vs a 42" screen. Image size at the handheld position is actually larger than a 42" screen from 8ft away. This comes with some challenges though. Since air is elastic, it filters over distance. You can get away with a bit more artifice in a big rig particularly in the presence region, in a near field set up not as much. So, things really have to be that much more well sorted on the electronics side. Your BPatrol power supplies a perfect example. Choice of DAC another. Returning to the analogy comparing say an iPad screen with a Samsung Tab Pro S' which has better resolution, the latter makes the movie closer to a cinema experience than the former.

Your point about scale and relative scale is a good one but I have to think a bit more about it. I actually do make use of the idea in the sense that, while my speakers are quite far apart I also sit rather close to them. This seating arrangement is easier to accomplish with monitors than with multi-driver speakers, because with the latter you need to sit at some distance to get coherence of sound. With my monitor/seating configuration I can get a wider soundstage than with some multi-driver speakers in the same room (and the soundstage is deep as well). This certainly helps with the size illusion with regard to large-scale music.

I agree with you about sorting out the electronics. The BorderPatrol power supplies indeed helped a lot. The great reduction of noise floor allowed for the ambience retrieval that is essential for proper scaling. I am certain a better DAC would help in reducing artifice that still stands in the way.

Steve Williams · Sep 22, 2016

fas42 said:
Good points. I use the laptop I'm typing this on for 'ultra' near field/pseudo headphone listening - which means I have the volume wound up to maximum, and put my head down right over the speakers, chin almost resting on the keyboard. When the quality of the source, etc, is there, this gives a very immersive listening experience, with depth going back into the display - hence "pseudo headphones".

The "well sorted on the electronics side" side is key - conventional audio playback fails badly on the near listening test, a competent system remains convincing no matter how close one's head is to the drivers.

That must do wonders for your hearing

You turn the volume to max and stick your head over the speakers.

This gives a whole new reference to listening Frank

bonzo75 · Sep 22, 2016

Steve Williams said:
That must do wonders for your hearing

You turn the volume to max and stick your head over the speakers. This gives a whole new reference to listening Frank

Steve you should try it. Turn your volume to max and stick your head on the Wilson

RBFC · Sep 22, 2016

bonzo75 said:
Steve you should try it. Turn your volume to max and stick your head on the Wilson

This will save a ton of money on cables, etc for you. Hearing aids are much cheaper.

Lee

KeithR · Sep 22, 2016

the fact people are arguing about $50k cables is mildly amusing. if only we can have more first world problems like this in this world

bonzo75 · Sep 22, 2016

KeithR said:
the fact people are arguing about $50k cables is mildly amusing. if only we can have more first world problems like this in this world

I guess people are arguing if do cables make that big a difference just because they are 50k

KeithR · Sep 22, 2016

bonzo75 said:
I guess people are arguing if do cables make that big a difference just because they are 50k

why any cable should cost $50k in the first place is a much better question.

Steve Williams · Sep 22, 2016

KeithR said:
why any cable should cost $50k in the first place is a much better question.

I completely agree Keith

It's become a crazy industry as we now await the launch of the WAMM

microstrip · Sep 22, 2016

KeithR said:
why any cable should cost $50k in the first place is a much better question.

The big question is why a $50 cable does not manage to sound like a $50k one ...

NorthStar · Sep 22, 2016

KeithR said:
why any cable should cost $50k in the first place is a much better question.

Let's ask the cable manufacturers that question. But I already know their answer. So, @ the end we are free to buy them or not, they simply provide the best cables to feed our pursuit of the ultimate/absolute happiness, no?
So far we have how many owners/testers of MB cables...three, six? ...Who commented on their superiority...sound improvement.

I don't get it; if someone object to a $50K/pair of speaker wires, why not object to a $200K turntable?
It's not the point, what is is the best sound. MB clearly mentioned in their promotional literature: "Cost-no-object"
• http://www.masterbuiltaudio.com/technology

"Ultra Extreme (TM) Bi-Wire Speaker Cable – using “super-conductivity” technology developed for the large Hadron Collider at the CERN Laboratory in Switzerland, a new alloy consisting of rare earth materials, precious metals and ceramic filler enables almost zero resistance to electrical signals down to the millionth of a volt range. For this reason, the Ultra Extreme Cables will let you hear details and sonic holography not heard in any other brand of wire on the market. At extremely low volume levels, you will hear a huge soundstage, bass power and depth that you have never had before experienced! One of the most expensive cables in the world, it is clearly a class leader and must be considered as important as any other component in an “ultimate” reference system."
________

There are less expensive cables out there, also using other great technologies (not as advanced as the alloy used in the LHC though), like magnets.
This guy is Canadian, I believe. Would you like to try cables from his company? I sure would like to give them a test myself; I like his demo with the light bulb...quite 'energizing'.

Mobiusman · Sep 22, 2016

amirm said:
Whatever this cable does, is not what its manufacturer thinks it does. This is what they say:

"The new Ultra Extreme alloy was developed during a contract with CERN to provide a “super conductivity” cable with close-to-zero resistance and/or signal loss; this alloy was used in the Large Hadron Collider."

LHC has a site dedicated to their superconductors: http://lhc-machine-outreach.web.cern.ch/lhc-machine-outreach/components/cable.htm

"Copper is an insulation material between the filaments in the superconductive state, when the temperature is below -263C. When leaving the superconductive state, copper acts as a conductor transferring the electric current and the heat. Niobium-titanium is an superconducting alloy."

Translating into English, normal conductors increase their resistivity as you lower temperatures. Hence the reason copper becomes an insulator at -9 deg. Kelvin.

Superconducting material such as Niobium-titanium however, suddenly enter a state where they lose all resistance and hence become superconductors. They are used to build powerful magnets to accelerate particles at LHC/CERN.

Our interest is of course room temperature. At room temp, the reverse of all this happens. Niobium-titanium at room temp has 20 times higher resistance than copper! Let me repeat: Niobium-titanium has twenty times higher resistance than ordinary copper.

So clearly they have their wires crossed at MB if they think making such statements actually hold water, pun intended. What they produce better not be a superconductor....

Impressive science lesson.

fas42 · Sep 22, 2016

Steve Williams said:
That must do wonders for your hearing

You turn the volume to max and stick your head over the speakers. This gives a whole new reference to listening Frank

Remember, I'm talking about those tiny laptop speakers

. They are just headphone drivers, in reality, and the volume they put out is no more than a pair slapped over your ears. I'm just bypassing plugging in an accessory, that's all ...

But the real point is getting an immersive listening experience. People seem to have a major glitch with listening to powerful sound; they will walk up to the edge of a brass band going for it, and be pummelled by intense bursts of music making - but are petrified to go anywhere near this level on an audio system. Sorry, sound is sound, wherever it comes from; there's a continuum of experience in all this ...

fas42 · Sep 22, 2016

Mobiusman said:
Impressive science lesson.

Of course the pure copper content in those cables is doing the conducting of the audio - and MB certainly know that. What the other, fancy stuff is doing is altering the environment in which the transfer of electrical energy is taking place - and that's where "interesting" things are happening ...

fas42 · Sep 22, 2016

microstrip said:
The big question is why a $50 cable does not manage to sound like a $50k one ...

Indeed. In fact, $5 worth of cable is enough to get the job done, if one goes about it the right way. And that's all I've been using for a couple of decades. As they say, it's not what you have, it's how you use it that counts ...

NorthStar · Sep 22, 2016

Frank, what brand of laptop is yours?

Two, do you sometimes connect it to an external integrated amp and pair of loudspeakers?

Three, if yes what brand of speaker cables are you using?

fas42 · Sep 22, 2016

Bob, it's a, now, pretty old HP Compaq 6830s - it was a model aiming for the computer gaming crowd, and proudly states Dolby! Home Theatre on a big sticker, on a corner. Quality in the audio side is obviously highly variable in these beasts, just 12 months I had a Dell which was the premium model at the time it was sold, looks mighty flash! But the audio in the latter was shot, it was truly awful - never bothered trying to make anything of it.

No, have never tried linking to external system.

The last name cables I used was Van den Hul, 30 years ago - when they were all the rage - everything since has just been from the electrical goods supplier, and standard electronic parts people.

Folsom · Sep 22, 2016

If the master built cables were made of super conductive material, but at room temperature they are not super conductive, and even have some resistance that's much higher than copper, that could be good actually. I'm not going to explain why, because I've never met an audiophile that believes anything but the biggest conductors with the lowest resistance is best - and it's not in my best interest anyway. The proof is in the listening. I didn't hear anything good at Axpona with them, but that has more to do with VAC than VSA/MB.

ack · Sep 22, 2016

Folsom said:
If the master built cables were made of super conductive material, but at room temperature they are not super conductive, and even have some resistance that's much higher than copper, that could be good actually.

Notice what was posted earlier, and what the intent was: "The new Ultra Extreme alloy was developed during a contract with CERN to provide a “super conductivity” cable with close-to-zero resistance and/or signal loss"

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