Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[rando]

Another ruminative objective to work outwards from is the amount of infrastructure designed to carry video (with devoted audio formatting intertwined) or for highly controlled rejection of noise to make voice data clear.

 

[Another Johnson]

Until I solved the isp and wiring/switching infrastructure issues, even a $25k DAC was disappointing. Once I got those sorted, most DACs sound “decent.” A good DAC sounds special. Obviously room + speakers + amp have to be dealt with too, but as was pointed out, you have to sort them out whatever your source.

At my house it was a classic case of garbage in, garbage out. Until the isp fixed their side of my gateway and I went to serious Ethernet on mine, digital was unreliable and mediocre at best.

 

[hopkins]

Until I solved the isp and wiring/switching infrastructure issues, even a $25k DAC was disappointing. Once I got those sorted, most DACs sound “decent.” A good DAC sounds special. Obviously room + speakers + amp have to be dealt with too, but as was pointed out, you have to sort them out whatever your source.

At my house it was a classic case of garbage in, garbage out. Until the isp fixed their side of my gateway and I went to serious Ethernet on mine, digital was unreliable and mediocre at best.

Yes we all have very different experiences! It makes the topic very confusing for a newcomer.

 

[Another Johnson]

Yes we all have very different experiences! It makes the topic very confusing for a newcomer.

If you don’t get the “garbage in” part sorted, it won’t matter what else you do.

If you don’t have “garbage in” at your installation, that makes it easier. We have all been newcomers.

 

[hopkins]

If you don’t get the “garbage in” part sorted, it won’t matter what else you do.

If you don’t have “garbage in” at your installation, that makes it easier. We have all been newcomers.

Well, in my case it's the DAC that got the "garbage in" sorted. That's just my experience, I am not denying your experience

 

[Another Johnson]

Well, in my case it's the DAC that got the "garbage in" sorted. That's just my experience, I am not denying your experience

A DAC is not going to sort out quarter second jitter or 10% packet loss. Unless it has some miracle AI capacity to just know what the file was supposed to be.

I’m sure your DAC would sound great here. Most DACs do.

 

[hopkins]

A DAC is not going to sort out quarter second jitter or 10% packet loss. Unless it has some miracle AI capacity to just know what the file was supposed to be.

Actually there are many DACs which reclock the source signal

Concerning network errors, this is really a topic that can be considered independently of the discussion, because you don't need "audiophile" solutions to fix this.

 

[hopkins]

Or you can try this product which makes similar claims about "garbage in": https://msbtechnology.com/dacs/the-select-digital-director/

Not the same budget, obviously.

 

[Another Johnson]

Actually there are many DACs which reclock the source signal

Yes. Do you really believe that reclocking will solve 250 msec jitter and 10% packet loss? Unless you have a HUGE buffer, you’re going to hear it.

The “experts” who argue that the quality of the input doesn’t matter are obstacles to the solution to the problem. They set me back several years.

In my experience they were right that it didn’t matter for them … because their listening base was computer oriented at the outset. They were used to the problems and the problems sounded normal to them.

Rather than gin you up for another 500 posts on this dead horse, I’ll leave you to your own devices.

 

[hopkins]

Yes. Do you really believe that reclocking will solve 250 msec jitter and 10% packet loss? Unless you have a HUGE buffer, you’re going to hear it.

The “experts” who argue that the quality of the input doesn’t matter are obstacles to the solution to the problem. They set me back several years.

In my experience they were right that it didn’t matter for them … because their listening base was computer oriented at the outset. They were used to the problems and the problems sounded normal to them.

Rather than gin you up for another 500 posts on this dead horse, I’ll leave you to your own devices.

Once again, packet losses is a purely IT topic. You don't need audiophile solutions for this.

Concerning jitter, yes, there are DACs that buffer a sufficient quantity of samples to address this. Edit: nowadays anyway you can get pretty low jitter signals from a basic digital source. But that does not change my answer (as any digital source will have some jitter).

I am not claiming to be an "expert". I am just sharing my experience. If you have a problem with that, then maybe the concept of online discussion forums is not for you?

 

[Rexp]

Yes. Do you really believe that reclocking will solve 250 msec jitter and 10% packet loss? Unless you have a HUGE buffer, you’re going to hear it.

The “experts” who argue that the quality of the input doesn’t matter are obstacles to the solution to the problem. They set me back several years.

In my experience they were right that it didn’t matter for them … because their listening base was computer oriented at the outset. They were used to the problems and the problems sounded normal to them.

Rather than gin you up for another 500 posts on this dead horse, I’ll leave you to your own devices.

Since we can't easily demo this kind of solution, would be great if you could share a YouTube phone video of your systems streaming playback.

 

[Al M.]

Actually there are many DACs which reclock the source signal

Yes, that was my mistake in thinking as well. For a CD transport, mine already has a relatively low jitter of 115 psec, and I thought the reclocking within my DAC would do the rest. Boy, was I wrong. Eventually I put a reclocker between CD transport and DAC that brings jitter down to 8 psec, and voila, much better sound. An internal reclocker to a DAC can only do so much, even if it is advertised as technically competent.

Interestingly, while dCS DACs also have an internal reclocker, improvements in performance with a dCS external clock are common knowledge.

 

[hopkins]

Yes, that was my mistake in thinking as well. For a CD transport, mine already has a relatively low jitter of 115 psec, and I thought the reclocking within my DAC would do the rest. Boy, was I wrong. Eventually I put a reclocker between CD transport and DAC that brings jitter down to 8 psec, and voila, much better sound. An internal reclocker to a DAC can only do so much, even if it is advertised as technically competent.

Interestingly, while dCS DACs also have an internal reclocker, improvements in performance with a dCS external clock are common knowledge.

There are many ways of implementing reclocking.
I don't think you can generalize here.
Once again, I am sharing my experience and replying to Another Johnson's comments in which he says: that's impossible. No it's not impossible, and the fact that many fail does not mean a few cannot succeed (or are at the very least worthy of some attention...). Digital audio is a constantly evolving field.

 

[skinnyfla]

... well, I for one would be really interested to find out where to start improvement. I am a newbie to digital and run a basic system, as my main effort goes into analogue.

Maybe someone could at least do a short writeup to the signalpath / garbage in stuff.

I - for example - currently rip my CDs on an iMac via dbpoweramp to lossless WAV. I save them on my iMac, where I run Roon as Software. I then go via CAT 5 or 6 (I believe, had the house wiring done about 5-6 years ago) to a Fritzbox 6490. From there it goes via Ethernet (again CAT 5 I believe) to the musicroom and runs into an Auralic Aries G1 as bridge and from there to a Mcintosh C52 (which has an integrated DAC that I currently use) and then to the poweramp and to my Wilson Sascha DAWs... Room is obviously treated, so thanks for the hint but I know my way around the stereosetup and analogue - it`s just digital I`m all new to... mainly because I only play digital about 10 - 20% of the time... still really interested in how to improve, based on all the knowledge here, though.

Cheers,

Christoph

 

[Al M.]

There are many ways of implementing reclocking.
I don't think you can generalize here.
Once again, I am sharing my experience and replying to Another Johnson's comments in which he says: that's impossible. No it's not impossible, and the fact that many fail does not mean a few cannot succeed (or are at the very least worthy of some attention...). Digital audio is a constantly evolving field.

Sure, if you don't want to improve your digital, stay where you are. You may think it's good, but it can always be better.

There's denial everywhere in the audio world. I used to be a huge skeptic of audiophile power cords on false technical grounds, until I implemented great ones in my system, which make all the difference. I recognized my big mistake and moved on.

 

[hopkins]

Sure, if you don't want to improve your digital, stay where you are. You may think it's good, but it can always be better.

There's denial everywhere in the audio world. I used to be a huge skeptic of audiophile power cords on false technical grounds, until I implemented great ones in my system, which make all the difference. I recognized my big mistake and moved on.

Why do you and others make things so personal? This audio, were are not comparing the size of our genitals here.

Did I say things could not be improved?

I am making what I think is an interesting suggestion to the question asked - turns out he already has a DAC anyway.

I don't see how your power cord example is relevant to the discussion. Only idiots never change their minds. Do you think I am a complete moron?

 

[andromedaaudio]

I fell in love with high end audio on mark levinson digital 20 years ago , nothing has changed .
Apart from some side steps to WADIA WEISS and Meitner i m back where it all started .

No vinyl or tape can put the pressure down on low freq s like digital can .
ML has that plus it has rhythm i wouldnt want to listen house music any other way ( besides wadax $$$$)

Ps the finite element footers i put under the apple are just for fun

 

[Al M.]

Why do you and others make things so personal? This audio, were are not comparing the size of our genitals here.

Did I say things could not be improved?

I am making what I think is an interesting suggestion to the question asked - turns out he already has a DAC anyway.

I don't see how your power cord example is relevant to the discussion. Do you think I am a complete moron?

No, I don't, and apologies for my tone. I am just frustrated with technical arguments that don't hold up once you actually investigate and do the listening -- and the problem then gets dismissed by others anyway. Yes, in that sense I do think my power cord example is relevant to the discussion.

 

[hopkins]

No, I don't, and apologies for my tone. I am just frustrated with technical arguments that don't hold up once you actually investigate and do the listening -- and the problem then gets dismissed by others anyway. Yes, in that sense I do think my power cord example is relevant to the discussion.

Fine, but it was not my intention to get into a technical discussion before Another Johnson pulled me into it.

 

[Blackmorec]

Once again, packet losses is a purely IT topic. You don't need audiophile solutions for this.

In my experience, where you do benefit hugely is in using audiophile approaches to IT topics. If you are going to use IT equipment and techniques to listen to music and you care about ultimate sound quality as measured by your enjoyment, involvement and sub-conscious emotional response, there’s no such thing as ‘purely IT’ because every step in the IT chain has an effect on the final sound and if you don’t consider that as an audiophile, you will definitely prefer the sound of analog and with good reason.

Think about this aspect. It’s a widely held belief amongst IT savvy audiophiles that a streaming router based on the Puma chipset sounds significantly inferior to a router based on the Broadcom chipset.

In order for that to be the case, the improved output from the Broadcom router has to pass though and improve every other process between the router and your DAC. In order for it do that, the incoming data stream has to affect and improve the output….of every module in the network. Bear in mind, you may be converting the signal to radio waves or light, converting it back, passing it through a switch, into a server, where it may be reclocked, buffered, then retransmitted over Ethernet or USB. All those processes must be sensitive to the quality of the incoming signal and respond by improving their output. Better in = better out
What this means is that if you can improve the sound quality by improving the router, the exact same logic must apply to every other component on the way through the network. the better the incoming signal the better the output.
With that logic in mind, the question then is; ‘how better’?. What has to be improved? Fortunately thanks to the network standardisation committees there’s a simple answer. The network’s ‘Physical Layer” . Improve the physical layer and there’re are fewer errors, fewer interrupts, less latency, less jitter, less noise of all types, lower power supply impedances and essentially every component has less to do and works faster, more effectively and efficiently.
From an IT perspective, as long as the physical layer is there or there-abouts, all is fine. Sound quality on the other hand seems to very much depend on how good the physical layer is.