Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[Blackmorec]

… something I have been giving a lot of thought… with all those variables floating around there’s little convenient about streaming until you reach that point of perfection for a lot of money - buy a great CDP and spin CDs and that’s that… plug n play if you so want…

Technically you’re absolutely correct. It takes some work to get a streaming system to sound great. First the network has to be correctly designed to isolate audio from all the rest of the household traffic, such that the audio network becomes a quiet backwater, free from the ebb and flow of all household, non-audio-related traffic. There has to be some galvanic isolation, power supplies need to be low noise, low impedance and the system needs to be protected against both internally generated and external EMI. But once it’s there it can sound utterly wonderful. So that’s quite a lot of effort but here’s the win: Convenience!
What I would have is a top-class sounding system where even Swiss Radio Classics MP3-based music can provide hours of super-involving, emotionally thrilling music. For me, the biggest hurdle in audio is in actually finding great music that I love. Whoever does the programming for Swiss Radio Classics has the knowledge to find recordings, one after another that I love. And all it needs to add those recordings to my library of favorites is the click of a button. Add a discography of the composer’s work? Another click
Let’s say that at breakfast I’m catching up on forum posts and read about a great piece of music by someone I’ve never hear of. 2 clicks, and that recording is in my >Favorites<, often as an HD recording. That evening I take a listen to the album and love it, so I add all the artists other albums to my collection. But maybe there are more albums than I want? No problem! I just click, >Artist>Most Popular Tracks and I get to listen to a selection of the best tracks from all his/her albums. Like what I hear? Click >Playlist and I now have those albums stored in my >Playlist Library<. Want some more albums of a similar ilk; press >Similar Artists< and I get a selection of other artists creating similar music
For 50 years I had a TT and CDP. I spent a fair bit on money on the media, (I used to bring suitcases full of the stuff back from US business trips) but along with finding music I loved, there were a lot of duds, albums that just took up space and eventually got moved on at a 90% loss. Streaming is like owning your own branch of Tower Records, with staff who are familiar with every recording and can spend the day creating playlists of your favorite music. You’ve heard the expression, “like a kid in a toy shop” ? That was me. So there’s a choice….do you want low cost access to literally millions of either low fidelity or super-high fidelity albums? The difference lies in how much effort you are prepared to put into building and refining your system, just like every other branch of hi-fi.

 

[skinnyfla]

Technically you’re absolutely correct. It takes some work to get a streaming system to sound great. First the network has to be correctly designed to isolate audio from all the rest of the household traffic, such that the audio network becomes a quiet backwater, free from the ebb and flow of all household, non-audio-related traffic. There has to be some galvanic isolation, power supplies need to be low noise, low impedance and the system needs to be protected against both internally generated and external EMI. But once it’s there it can sound utterly wonderful. So that’s quite a lot of effort but here’s the win: Convenience!
What I would have is a top-class sounding system where even Swiss Radio Classics MP3-based music can provide hours of super-involving, emotionally thrilling music. For me, the biggest hurdle in audio is in actually finding great music that I love. Whoever does the programming for Swiss Radio Classics has the knowledge to find recordings, one after another that I love. And all it needs to add those recordings to my library of favorites is the click of a button. Add a discography of the composer’s work? Another click
Let’s say that at breakfast I’m catching up on forum posts and read about a great piece of music by someone I’ve never hear of. 2 clicks, and that recording is in my >Favorites<, often as an HD recording. That evening I take a listen to the album and love it, so I add all the artists other albums to my collection. But maybe there are more albums than I want? No problem! I just click, >Artist>Most Popular Tracks and I get to listen to a selection of the best tracks from all his/her albums. Like what I hear? Click >Playlist and I now have those albums stored in my >Playlist Library<. Want some more albums of a similar ilk; press >Similar Artists< and I get a selection of other artists creating similar music
For 50 years I had a TT and CDP. I spent a fair bit on money on the media, (I used to bring suitcases full of the stuff back from US business trips) but along with finding music I loved, there were a lot of duds, albums that just took up space and eventually got moved on at a 90% loss. Streaming is like owning your own branch of Tower Records, with staff who are familiar with every recording and can spend the day creating playlists of your favorite music. You’ve heard the expression, “like a kid in a toy shop” ? That was me. So there’s a choice….do you want low cost access to literally millions of either low fidelity or super-high fidelity albums? The difference lies in how much effort you are prepared to put into building and refining your system, just like every other branch of hi-fi.

... ah - see, thats a completely different approach to music - I love a physical music collection and there`s nothing greater than owning a huge selection of records and CDs. It`s part of my life, my lifestyle and has been so for the last 35 years. I have 2500 records and 1000 CDs (which is not even much, compared to some folks here) - growing. I love physical media, buying vinyl at record stores or at concerts. I come from a background of subcultures where you really involve in a scene and with the people involved - be it Ska, Punk, Psychobilly, Rockabilly, Rock n Roll etc... all that may progress to Folk, Country, Americana and some Singer/Songwriter stuff over years - but that`s where I stand and even if streaming were ever so convenient, when I truly enjoy a discovered album (yes, often via streaming) I end up buying it - always - and will continue to do so.

So the aspect/argument of convenience - while I completely get the point - may work well for some, it gives me little to nothing though, as I spin my records and thats my go-to place.

The only reason I take digital into account is that there are many albums that can not be bought on vinyl and today even some music is released as digital download only - so I don`t want to completely miss out on it - but the aspect of convenience for serious listening is secondary to me. What I want is best possible sound and a reasonable effort - as my main system ist analog.

Best,

Christoph

 

[Blackmorec]

... ah - see, thats a completely different approach to music - I love a physical music collection and there`s nothing greater than owning a huge selections of records and CDs. It`s part of my life, my lifestyle and has been so for the last 35 years. I have 2500 records and 1000 CDs (which is not even much, compared to some folks here) - growing. I love physical media, buying vinyl at record stores or at concerts. I come from a background of subcultures where you really involve in a scene and with the people involved - be it Ska, Punk, Psychobilly, Rockabilly, Rock n Roll etc... all that may progress to Folk, Country, Americana and some Singer/Songwriter stuff over years - but that`s where I stand and even if streaming were ever so convenient, when I truly enjoy a discovered album (yes, often via streaming) I end up buying it - always - and will continue to do so.

So the aspect/argument of convenience - while I completely get the point - may work well for some, it gives me little to nothing though, as I spin my records and thats my go-to place.

The only reason I take digital into account is that there are any albums that can not be bought on vinyl and today even some music is released as digital download only - so I don`t want to completely miss out on it - but the aspect of convenience for serious listening is secondary to me. What I want is best possible sound and a reasonable effort - as my main system ist analog.

Best,

Christoph

Hi Christoph,
Yes, I can exactly see why you’d love such an approach and why spending a lot on streaming doesn’t deliver the same benefit for you it did for me.

I think the big difference is access to new music. I was like the guy walking into a city library, trying to find a few books I’d love mixed in with millions I most certainly wouldn’t. Such an approach inevitably means either sticking to a small circle of authors or taking home some duds. Your approach is akin to belonging to a book club with others sharing similar tastes.
Your approach to music collecting provides a great way to qualify new music and also has a ‘lifestyle’ element. Streaming did the same for me. The ‘lifestyle’ part for me was managing and improving the quality of the streaming, which involved a lot of research and correspondence with like minded enthusiasts

 

[skinnyfla]

Hi Christoph,
Yes, I can exactly see why you’d love such an approach and why spending a lot on streaming doesn’t deliver the same benefit for you it did for me.

I think the big difference is access to new music. I was like the guy walking into a city library, trying to find a few books I’d love mixed in with millions I most certainly wouldn’t. Such an approach inevitably means either sticking to a small circle of authors or taking home some duds. Your approach is akin to belonging to a book club with others sharing similar tastes.
Your approach to music collecting provides a great way to qualify new music and also has a ‘lifestyle’ element. Streaming did the same for me. The ‘lifestyle’ part for me was managing and improving the quality of the streaming, which involved a lot of research and correspondence with like minded enthusiasts

... I like that. In the end it comes down to "how" we enjoy our music. It all comes down to the same "common denominator" - music. Some enjoy a physical collection, some enjoy a digital collection... thats probably where the main financial effort will be and only few can afford building multiple systems. I have the same thing you experienced with "walking into a library" with the digital world - by the way ;-)... it was just system overload for me and I endend not playing anything anymore... I need that physical connection and yes - collecting is part of the hobby for me.

Cheers,

Christoph

 

[Snickers]

Well, that’s an interesting and refreshingly different take on things. You are right - all the variables are likely to put some people off - seems even more difficult to set up streaming than a complex analog system… and in the end with the results, that it still can’t compete.

In your opinion, what does it take to make digital sound great, CDP or streaming ripped and what’s the importance of the components from ripper to server to software to switch to galvanic isolation to bridge to reclocker to DAC to cabling… boy oh boy… … or just a decent CDP and a great analog rig…

There seems to be a lot of confusion about how a digital setup actually works. There is an entire industry out there taking advantage of this.

Firstly we have to differentiate between CDP and streaming. So let's take streaming first.

Data packages are transfered to the streamer. There is a limit to how bad things can be before an entire package is lost. But we can not loose a partial package. It is also extremely uncommon that packages are corrupted or faulty. So we can trust that the packages do reach the streamer.

What happens next is that the streamer has to take these packages and make them into a stable clocked stream of data. The timing, voltage, precision etc of this is not affected by the incoming data quality. But if a streamer is poorly designed, the incoming data may electrically interfer with the bitstream, or even with the analog signal. But that means the streamer is extremely poorly designed and there is nothing we can do outside the streamer to improve of a situation like that. The incoming data is regarded as heavy noise relative to both the digital audio stream and the analog signal. The noise pattern does not change in any useful way with "improved clocking, voltage levels, noise levels or signal grounding". The network side either works or does not work.

A CDP is a bit of a different beast. But back in the day, if my memory does not trick me here, the CD players were based on the so called Red book (named after a red book of standards) standard. Later, starting with some portable models, CD rom, Mark Levinson CD transport etc, started to handle the data read from the CD as package data at a far higher rate. As far as I remember this was called the Yellow book standard (yes, you are right, named after a yellow book of standards). So a Yellow book based CD transport should perform more like a streamer, while a Red book based transport should not perform at the same level. Both of them will depend on having a properly isolated power supply to make sure the mechanical transport does not interfer with the signal path. Again, you can not do anything outside of the product to improve this.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Well, that’s an interesting and refreshingly different take on things. You are right - all the variables are likely to put some people off - seems even more difficult to set up streaming than a complex analog system… and in the end with the results, that it still can’t compete.

In your opinion, what does it take to make digital sound great, CDP or streaming ripped and what’s the importance of the components from ripper to server to software to switch to galvanic isolation to bridge to reclocker to DAC to cabling… boy oh boy… … or just a decent CDP and a great analog rig…

@Snickers beat me to it. I would not focus on the network, but rather the streamer/ CD player and/or DAC. With regards to streaming, there's little magic involved in getting the signal intact to the streamer as long as the bandwidth is high enough (which it is in most homes these days).

And as mentioned, there's nothing that can be done to "improve" the original signal along the way before that. The closest you can get to improving a digital signal is to introduce a DAC with a sound signature you prefer, or of couse active adjustment with EQ/DSP.

 

[skinnyfla]

... so basically in your opinion the DAC has te biggest influence on the soud - correct? That would be what I would have expected... but anyhow, opinions seem to vary.

@Snickers & @sigbergaudio - where does that put CD playback opposed to a perfectly ripped CD as WAV using - say - dBPoweramp. If the signalpath and delivered package is near perfect (as no data is lost or compromised) when it reaches the bridge/dac, then it should be superior or at least equal the quality a transport extracts from the CD - correct?

 

[Lagonda]

Complexity is not uncommon in high-end audio.
I give your the helium-powered Plasmatronic loudspeakers:

View attachment 123817

Those are great for Disney soundtracks !

 

[sigbergaudio]

... so basically in your opinion the DAC has te biggest influence on the soud - correct? That would be what I would have expected... but anyhow, opinions seem to vary.

@Snickers & @sigbergaudio - where does that put CD playback opposed to a perfectly ripped CD as WAV using - say - dBPoweramp. If the signalpath and delivered package is near perfect (as no data is lost or compromised) when it reaches the bridge/dac, then it should be superior or at least equal the quality a transport extracts from the CD - correct?

Yes, playback of the CD directly from a CD player/transport -> DAC compared to playback of the perfectly ripped WAV -> DAC would give the same sound quality.

 

[skinnyfla]

... that`s great. What I`ve never understood from a technical point of view is this: We pay thousands or even 10s of thousands on CD transport to reduce jitter and technical issues while spinning the disc, now we rip a CD using a 30 EUR drive... does the process of ripping from that drive not introduce jitter by itself and thus the stored file is compromised by the plain process of ripping? Or ist that corrected by the error correction and re-reading by the software - dBPoweramp usually confirms a perfect rip and as far as I know pulls data from several sites to correct any errors... I`m really just interested and trying to understand how this works... as I too am very open to expectation bias and am in the middle of finding the correct digital solution for my needs - thanks!

 

[skinnyfla]

... ah - here`s something I found - always something new to learn:

The AccurateRip database tells you if your rip is accurate or not.
It can be used the other way around too, how many rips are accurate given a certain brand/model.
The list can be found here: dBpoweramp CD Drive Accuracy List

Jitter​

Will ripping add jitter to the file?

The answer is no.

Jitter (small variations in the timing) happens at two stages.
At recording time, the jitter of the clock driving the AD converter and at playback time, the jitter of the DAC.
Ripping is simply copying the bits from one digital medium (CD) to another (HD).
The timing is not a property of the data but a property of the playback device.
Asking if ripping is adding jitter is like asking if moving an LP from one shelf to another will add wow and flutter.

 

[the sound of Tao]

... I like that. In the end it comes down to "how" we enjoy our music. It all comes down to the same "common denominator" - music. Some enjoy a physical collection, some enjoy a digital collection... thats probably where the main financial effort will be and only few can afford building multiple systems. I have the same thing you experienced with "walking into a library" with the digital world - by the way ;-)... it was just system overload for me and I endend not playing anything anymore... I need that physical connection and yes - collecting is part of the hobby for me.

Cheers,

Christoph

Trust your instinct… if you feel CDs and a physical
music library is what you need to do to connect with the experience then go for it. The reasons to go for a file based server system (and streaming) are different that’s all.

 

[rando]

... that`s great. What I`ve never understood from a technical point of view is this: We pay thousands or even 10s of thousands on CD transport to reduce jitter and technical issues while spinning the disc, now we rip a CD using a 30 EUR drive...

The we in that statement applies to... and not to...

For the analog mind this might be understood as whether a $30 cartridge reads the same grooves at the same rotational speed and plays the exact same music without interruption as cartridges costing thousands or even 10's of thousands. Don't get lost in the weeds implied by leading statement.

... does the process of ripping from that drive not introduce jitter by itself and thus the stored file is compromised by the plain process of ripping? Or ist that corrected by the error correction and re-reading by the software - dBPoweramp usually confirms a perfect rip and as far as I know pulls data from several sites to correct any errors... I`m really just interested and trying to understand how this works... as I too am very open to expectation bias and am in the middle of finding the correct digital solution for my needs - thanks!

Recognition of Perfect copies across drive offsets is their own data.

Perfect Rip is not absolute in that it satisfies a very low level condition stated above. It denotes the cookie cutter made the shape well enough to survive baking in a recognizable form. No CD or LP is perfect. If you happen upon one of the few capable of expounding upon this further in personable tones. Leave all others to their conflicts on the outside.

dBPoweramp pulls metadata from multiple sites. Typos and all other errors intact. Consider this a template with as many suggestions as you prefer to encounter or disregard. This program is a good step in the right direction. A program at the whims of cpu architecture voiding BluRay usage. A program without much in the way of innovation by way of updates or new versions. Safe as milk for anyone to use to rip discs and as easy to swallow.

 

[PYP]

@Snickers beat me to it. I would not focus on the network, but rather the streamer/ CD player and/or DAC. With regards to streaming, there's little magic involved in getting the signal intact to the streamer as long as the bandwidth is high enough (which it is in most homes these days).

And as mentioned, there's nothing that can be done to "improve" the original signal along the way before that. The closest you can get to improving a digital signal is to introduce a DAC with a sound signature you prefer, or of couse active adjustment with EQ/DSP.

@sigbergaudio Do you think these measurements of passive network filters are valid and that one can hear the difference? https://www.alpha-audio.net/review/review-english-electric-ee1-network-filter/3/

From the review:
"Do these filters do anything? Well… check yourself. We see in common mode a reduction of 17dB on the peaks and about 7dB across the noise floor. That’s unquestionably very decent.

Differential mode is a similar story, although it reduces the peaks a bit less: 10dB or so. But that it has an effect is obvious."

 

[sigbergaudio]

@sigbergaudio Do you think these measurements of passive network filters are valid and that one can hear the difference? https://www.alpha-audio.net/review/review-english-electric-ee1-network-filter/3/

From the review:
"Do these filters do anything? Well… check yourself. We see in common mode a reduction of 17dB on the peaks and about 7dB across the noise floor. That’s unquestionably very decent.

Differential mode is a similar story, although it reduces the peaks a bit less: 10dB or so. But that it has an effect is obvious."

1) Do I think the measurements are valid? Can you please elaborate on what you mean by a valid measurement? The answer is probably no, as far as I can understand this measurement is completely irrelevant with regards to audible differences. What they should measure is the noise output in the actual audio chain, so from the amplifier. If you can see a difference there, we can talk.

2) Can one hear the difference? Definitely not.

 

[PYP]

1) Do I think the measurements are valid? Can you please elaborate on what you mean by a valid measurement? The answer is probably no, as far as I can understand this measurement is completely irrelevant with regards to audible differences. What they should measure is the noise output in the actual audio chain, so from the amplifier. If you can see a difference there, we can talk.

2) Can one hear the difference? Definitely not.

Thank you.
1) well, I do not have the equipment nor the skill.
2) Having tried both passive and active network filters, I do hear a difference. If it is placebo effect, it is a persistent placebo effect. That is fine with me. The placebo has increased my enjoyment of music. [NOTE: it seems during every clinical trial a percentage of the people who receive a placebo get better, even folks with life-threatening conditions. Not that audio noise is life-threatening Although reading this thread you might think using digital is, from time to time.]

 

[skinnyfla]

... whats the easiest and cheapest but still most effective way to test? I really don`t feel like spending 6k for an Ansuz or Melco switch to find out it does nothing... is there an easier way (like the ifi lan isliencer - does that not do the same thing - reduce noise?)... just being curious...

 

[sigbergaudio]

I guess this forum has sponsors that sell audiophile network components, so I don't want to discuss that too much. I was just pointing out that the posts claiming the signal could actually get BETTER if sent through fancy network components was false.

 

[PYP]

... whats the easiest and cheapest but still most effective way to test? I really don`t feel like spending 6k for an Ansuz or Melco switch to find out it does nothing... is there an easier way (like the ifi lan isliencer - does that not do the same thing - reduce noise?)... just being curious...

First recommendation is to only try gear/tweaks that offer a money-back guarantee and something like 30 days to try it (both shown below do).

Second recommendation it to try a passive filter as a proof of concept. The convenient part is not needing a power source.

I haven't tried this one, but their footers are well made and work well for me: https://stackaudio.co.uk/smoothlan/
I use this one and like it, but it is pricey for a passive: https://www.networkacoustics.com/shop/muon-pro-ethernet-filter/

If you try one of these, I suggest you use them as close to the streamer as possible. For the smoothlan, attach your best LAN cable between the filter and streamer. While I don't understand why, some LAN cables sound better than others. While the Muon Pro has its own cable to plug into the streamer, I found using an RJ45 coupler and my fancy LAN cable into the streamer sounds much better.

Every system is different and what our ear/brain keys in on can be different. I prefer a filter that does not change the listening perspective (for example, seems to move the listener closer to the performance).

There are a number of powered switches that are closer to $4k, but I haven't tried any of them: Totaldac d-1 switch, Innous PhoenixNET and Network Acoustics Tempus. All well-reviewed by users.

 

[PYP]

I guess this forum has sponsors that sell audiophile network components, so I don't want to discuss that too much. I was just pointing out that the posts claiming the signal could actually get BETTER if sent through fancy network components was false.

That makes sense. I was trying to make a distinction between bits/packets (which aren't affected) and the potential for noise to be carried by the ethernet copper cable that would affect the overall sound of one's setup.

If there is noise that is transmitted, what kind of noise?
How is it transmitted?
How can the noise be mitigated?

Having tried ethernet straight to my DAC, which is also a Roon streamer, and then adding ethernet cleaners (including copper to optical to copper) as well as a separate Roon streamer (Grimm MU1) and then passive filters with the Grimm, I am convinced that there is noise being carried to the streamer. The mitigation of that noise results in improvements that are familiar to anyone who has used a power conditioner that works well in their system.

There is also the topic of network traffic as it relates to sound quality, but that is outside of my experience or understanding. My own network only has one wired connection, that being between the router and the streamer (in different rooms), with everything else connected via wifi. I have wondered if that is an advantage, but as some have pointed out to me, it is still one network -- that is, the wifi doesn't separate out the traffic from all the other devices.