Sound Quality of new roon versions (builds)

[Alrainbow]

What OS does wadax use ? i thought I read win10 somewhere

 

[Steve Vu]

Thank you, Steve. I appreciate you taking the time to reply. You do a good job of stating the "why" of Roon integration into the Wadax platform.

I'm not sure I complete agree with Roon's overwhelming UI superiority to every other player software out there or being developed, but that's OK. I freely admit that given a choice of using Roon *without* the sound quality issues of non-Wadax owners, I would continue to use it for its excellent user interface, warts and all (poor seach accuracy, poor handling of classical music cataloging to name two). I purchased a Roon lifetime license not long after Roon was introduced and do not regret that expenditure in the least. Roon's UI have done more for letting me discover more great music otherwise unknown to me than any other resource I've ever come across by a wide margin. I am eternally grateful for that.

Am I a little frustrated with what I see as their disregard or sometimes hostility toward users voicing sound quality concerns? Yes.

I have no idea what the to-be-released XDMS looks like or sounds like and make no predictions. I have hopes and some expectations given what I have observed and experienced over the last two years of Taiko Extreme ownership. But we'll have to wait a few more weeks to see and hear. Unlike TAS where I did some of the early beta-testing for Taiko, other than a few private discussions with Taiko personnel I have absolutely no inside experience with XDMS and other than offering my "wish list" requests, no input into Taiko's design decisions.

However, while you do an excellent job of describing the "why" of Roon integration into Wadax' architecture, I'm still trying to learn more of the "how" this is actually accomplished. Can you shed some light on this?

Thank you again for your reply,

Steve Z

Companies tried to create their software players that they can optimize their music servers. Their purpose is to control SQ. It is good and completely reasonable.

If Wadax can control Roon and make full great value of Roon to promote their strength, what prevented them? You cannot create a software player and then stop or improve it slowly. After finishing a software players, companies often have this trend. The software industry is always updated and improved continuously to serve the users' requirement. Wadax noticed Roon satisfied the necessary conditions completely. So they decided to use Roon that they can focus the cost and the resource to develop their main products. They are tenacious of their idea.

Although Dcs released Mosaic and their fans considered Mosaic was better than Roon but Dcs' James said that: "I do not know of any technical reason why there would be any sound quality difference between Mosaic and Roon. Both are providing asynchronous bit-perfect data to the music servers from presumably the same source material (are you streaming from TIDAL, playing locally stored content…?). Provided you aren’t using DSP (like EQ), no reason for one to sound different to the other." He is the modest and sincere man.

If Roon is bad, why is Wadax Ref Server better than others currently? It will be better so much when Wadax releases their reference PSU for the server in next May. If you can hear Wadax, you will understand this.

 

[Steve Vu]

And why Wadax can control Roon and how they do, I really do not know and also do not have enough the skill to explain you about that.

 

[ctydwn]

Boy, I truly would give a pretty penny for Emile's and/or Javier's thoughts on this discussion at this moment.
Wonder if they are kicked back with a bag of popcorn. Although, knowing Emile, he likely is burning both ends of the candle to let his, and his team's, latest creations speak for themselves in the coming months. I suspect Javier may be pushing the envelope as well in directions we are not yet aware.

 

[Steve Vu]

Steve,
Have you tried deleting the roon filters to see if the Wadax sound quality improves or not? It would be interesting to see if Wadax's roon optimization is further improved.

I removed them at once I read this topic but I still could not hear a difference. However, it is really improved in my friend's system. He does not use Wadax. This topic is helpful.

 

[Steve Vu]

Boy, I truly would give a pretty penny for Emile's and/or Javier's thoughts on this discussion at this moment.
Wonder if they are kicked back with a bag of popcorn. Although, knowing Emile, he likely is burning both ends of the candle to let his, and his team's, latest creations speak for themselves in the coming months. I suspect Javier may be pushing the envelope as well in directions we are not yet aware.

Javier told me that, boy. You also can give this discussion to Dcs' James.

 

[sbo6]

So Roon and HQ Player were free for you?

Should be, at a fee.

 

[oldmustang]

Companies tried to create their software players that they can optimize their music servers. Their purpose is to control SQ. It is good and completely reasonable.

If Wadax can control Roon and make full great value of Roon to promote their strength, what prevented them? You cannot create a software player and then stop or improve it slowly. After finishing a software players, companies often have this trend. The software industry is always updated and improved continuously to serve the users' requirement. Wadax noticed Roon satisfied the necessary conditions completely. So they decided to use Roon that they can focus the cost and the resource to develop their main products. They are tenacious of their idea.

Although Dcs released Mosaic and their fans considered Mosaic was better than Roon but Dcs' James said that: "I do not know of any technical reason why there would be any sound quality difference between Mosaic and Roon. Both are providing asynchronous bit-perfect data to the music servers from presumably the same source material (are you streaming from TIDAL, playing locally stored content…?). Provided you aren’t using DSP (like EQ), no reason for one to sound different to the other." He is the modest and sincere man.

If Roon is bad, why is Wadax Ref Server better than others currently? It will be better so much when Wadax releases their reference PSU for the server in next May. If you can hear Wadax, you will understand this.

Thank you, Steve. I appreciate your reply.

I agree with you that dCS seems to very slowly update its Mosaic software, though a new version (finally) came out a little while ago. Mosaic is definitely in the bare-bones school of music player software, but perfectly adequate for basic playing and searching for music via folder view (locally stored files). The new update reportedly now has Tidal integration, so I will have to update my Upsampler and check that out.

The chances of me ever being able to afford a Wadax Reference Server are somewhere between slim and none, But I admire no-compromise engineering, particularly if it accomplishes a concomitant level of performance. Perhaps someday I'll be able to make the pilgrimage to one of Mike's open houses to hear his legendary system.

Steve Z

 

[oldmustang]

And why Wadax can control Roon and how they do, I really do not know and also do not have enough the skill to explain you about that.

Thank you.

Steve Z

 

[abeidrov]

Is Wadax the only choice when Roon can compete with other software players? What if I do not have $140k to spend on a server? I was using Roon with Antipodes servers for many years before I finally had to move to Aurender. I was looking for a server under $20k, where Roon could be the best sounding software, but could not find any.

 

[Steve Vu]

Is Wadax the only choice when Roon can compete with other software players? What if I do not have $140k to spend on a server? I was using Roon with Antipodes servers for many years before I finally had to move to Aurender. I was looking for a server under $20k, where Roon could be the best sounding software, but could not find any.

I see you are using Aurender N30SA. It is one of the best music servers currently. You do not need to use Roon as a software player.

 

[cat6man]

I removed them at once I read this topic but I still could not hear a difference. However, it is really improved in my friend's system. He does not use Wadax. This topic is helpful.

thanks @steveV, interesting data point.

the other thing i find fascinating is the adjustments on the Wadax that adjust amplitude and slope of the data stream as well as amplitude of the clock. have you experimented with that and could you share your thoughts?

my guess is that this is being used to modulate the digital noise generated by digital processes.

my hypothesis (could be wrong) is based on the following:
1. we seem to have reached a point of insight that digital processing causes noise on the power plane that is very hard to contain due to grounding, ground loops, etc. this appears to be one of the reasons that software changes unexpectedly cause SQ changes.
2. most digital devices use some form of edge detection to determine a '1' from a '0'. in practice, there is usually a threshold X, between 0 and 1, that is used to determine the bit polarity. let's say 0.5 for the sake of discussion. now, there is a finite rise time and fall time to the analog signal carrying the data. when that level starts at 0 and ramps up to 1, at some point (determined by the clock) it either crosses the threshold X and the bit is declared a '1', or it's a '0'
3. by adjusting the amplitude of the signal, and the slope of the ramping up/down time, the user can change the points at which bits are determined to be '1' or '0'. therefore, we have knobs to adjust (on average) the parameters that determine exactly when bits are 'processed'. since this 'processing' causes noise with small spikes on the power supply whenever current is drawn by the digital chips, the knobs change where/how these spikes occur.
4. i think of this as jitter on the power supply induced noise, and by adjusting the knobs, you're modulating the jitter spectrum of the noise.

Q: does this topic belong here or in a Wadax thread?

 

[oldmustang]

Q: does this topic belong here or in a Wadax thread?

Interesting hypotheses. Thanks for sharing them and they give me something to mull over for a while.

I say continue this line of inquiry here -- the OP is the effects of Roon updates across a variety of users platforms, so that definitely includes Wadax in my opinion. Fertile ground for potential improvements if we can glean more information about how Wadax and others cope.

Thanks!

Steve Z

 

[cat6man]

Interesting hypotheses. Thanks for sharing them and they give me something to mull over for a while.

I say continue this line of inquiry here -- the OP is the effects of Roon updates across a variety of users platforms, so that definitely includes Wadax in my opinion. Fertile ground for potential improvements if we can glean more information about how Wadax and others cope.

Thanks!

Steve Z

this is part of my effort, as an engineer, to understand why software matters to SQ (and i'm not there yet)

for example, this could also be a rationale for improvements with the roon filter removal.
i would guess that the roon engineers see a filter bypass as a functionally clean thing to implement (and mathematically that is true).
however, if there is still some null filter in a software module that the data must traverse, that could result in additional (though useless) processing with a concomitant increase in noise spikes due to additional digital activity.

 

[Kingsrule]

FYI
Build 923 sounds much better than 918...

 

[christoph]

FYI
Build 923 sounds much better than 918...

Thanks, K
Will give 923 a whirl hopefully tomorrow.

 

[oldmustang]

Thanks, K
Will give 923 a whirl hopefully tomorrow.

Me too. Thanks for alerting us.

Hope springs eternal. . .

Steve Z

 

[Steve Vu]

thanks @steveV, interesting data point.

the other thing i find fascinating is the adjustments on the Wadax that adjust amplitude and slope of the data stream as well as amplitude of the clock. have you experimented with that and could you share your thoughts?

my guess is that this is being used to modulate the digital noise generated by digital processes.

my hypothesis (could be wrong) is based on the following:
1. we seem to have reached a point of insight that digital processing causes noise on the power plane that is very hard to contain due to grounding, ground loops, etc. this appears to be one of the reasons that software changes unexpectedly cause SQ changes.
2. most digital devices use some form of edge detection to determine a '1' from a '0'. in practice, there is usually a threshold X, between 0 and 1, that is used to determine the bit polarity. let's say 0.5 for the sake of discussion. now, there is a finite rise time and fall time to the analog signal carrying the data. when that level starts at 0 and ramps up to 1, at some point (determined by the clock) it either crosses the threshold X and the bit is declared a '1', or it's a '0'
3. by adjusting the amplitude of the signal, and the slope of the ramping up/down time, the user can change the points at which bits are determined to be '1' or '0'. therefore, we have knobs to adjust (on average) the parameters that determine exactly when bits are 'processed'. since this 'processing' causes noise with small spikes on the power supply whenever current is drawn by the digital chips, the knobs change where/how these spikes occur.
4. i think of this as jitter on the power supply induced noise, and by adjusting the knobs, you're modulating the jitter spectrum of the noise.

Q: does this topic belong here or in a Wadax thread?

As far as I know, the adjustments on the Wadax are used when users install different cables. Each cable has the difference characteristic. So Wadax users can use 3 these knobs to optimize the signal to DAC.

I use Wadax's optical cable. So I had Javier optimizes it for me. I really do not think about tuning these knobs. Maybe Mike does this better than me.

 

[christoph]

As far as I know, the adjustments on the Wadax are used when users install different cables. Each cable has the difference characteristic. So Wadax users can use 3 these knobs to optimize the signal to DAC.

I use Wadax's optical cable. So I had Javier optimizes it for me. I really do not think about tuning these knobs. Maybe Mike does this better than me.

Please discuss Wadax matters in the Wadax thread.

This thread is only for new versions/builds of roon and their sound quality compared to earlier versions/builds of roon and NOT for roon in general and even less so for roon AND Wadax matters

 

[Steve Vu]

Please discuss Wadax matters in the Wadax thread.

This thread is only for new versions/builds of roon and their sound quality compared to earlier versions/builds of roon and NOT for roon in general and even less so for roon AND Wadax matters

I understand you but please request this to above people and read their posts again. Why do you ask me, only me?